Episode 17

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Published on:

30th Apr 2025

Why OCD Is NOT Just Being “So Organized” 🙅

Despite misinformed pop culture statements, OCD isn’t a punchline—it’s a chronic brain loop that can be incredibly challenging for individuals to receive the care they need. In this episode, Val and Em get into the ins-and-outs of OCD, including suggestions for folks who are struggling with it, as well as folks who have a friend or loved one who is struggling. And, as always, we get into plenty of other fun stuff including TV recs and some hopeful headlines – like a rancher’s dog rescuing an infant 🥹

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DISCLAIMER: But For Real Podcast is not a substitute for individualized mental health treatment or healthcare. This podcast is solely for entertainment and educational purposes. If you are in crisis, please utilize crisis support services, such as the Crisis Text Line (Text START to 741741 in the US) or the 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline: (Call 988 in the US), or visit www.findahelpline.com for international resources.

Transcript
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Welcome to, but for Real, a variety show podcast co-hosted by two therapists who

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also happened to be loud mouth feminist.

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I'm Valerie, your resident elder, millennial child free cat lady.

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And I'm Emerson, your resident, chronically online Gen Z brat.

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And on the show we'll serve up a new episode every other week that will take

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you on a wild ride through the cultural zeitgeist, mental health and beyond.

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You'll

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definitely laugh and TBH sometimes maybe cry a little because this

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is a silly and serious show.

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Buckle up my friends,

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and let's get into today's episode.

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And we're back and we're back on a cloudy morning, but like

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the vibes are still here.

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The vibes

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are vibing because we said so.

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Well, yes, we're in charge of the vibe, temperature, curation,

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fermentation, just all of it.

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You know what I mean?

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Yes.

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Um, so we were just joking, um, before pressing record, I have my

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three beverages here, you said, of three beverage minimum, right?

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Yes.

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And I thought fun little like just jumping in, intro question.

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What is your favorite breakfast like day to day?

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Ooh.

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Oh, this is such a good question.

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I think I can think of it in a split way.

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So the one that I feel like I'm gravitating towards the most, because

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easy and I usually don't like, give myself enough time a smoothie of some variety.

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So you.

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Have a protein powder in there.

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A liquid breakfast changed my life.

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I was like, Hey, thank you to everyone that was like, Hey, just liquid breakfast

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over anything and like, you'll be good.

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Yeah.

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Um, so a little peanut butter banana kind of vibe.

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You're kidding.

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Really gorgeous and yum.

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If I have more time, I feel like I am.

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Uh, I'm British, so like, uh, a piece of butter toast.

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Just kidding.

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So sometimes I'll throw an egg on it, or sometimes it's toast with like.

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A little something else like some kind of protein or Yeah, whatever.

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But I am very, yes, a butter toast.

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I think if you kind of like cut parts of me open, there would

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be Kedi, Kerry Gold, ke gold.

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There would be Kerry Gold butter, just like.

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Up there.

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Oh my God, I love it.

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When I went to, uh, London and Scotland like five, six years

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ago now, and we had never been initiated to the British breakfast.

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Wow.

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And so the full English honey, the English breakfast, it was.

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So good.

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Especially like the Veganized version.

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We have like our vegan sausage and our potato, what do they call them?

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Um, not crumpet, um, I'm forgetting the name.

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Potato Scone, which is just like a little potato pancake kind of situation.

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Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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And like the broiled tomatoes, the baked beans.

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Mm-hmm.

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Like, oh, it was so good.

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I'm dreaming of it right now, but my normal day to day

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is also a liquid breakfast.

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Yeah, and I will give people my not so top secret recipe 'cause this

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is the exact same one that I make almost every day and I just love it.

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Um, I do 10 ounces of unsweet vanilla almond milk, you

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know, choose your milk choice.

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Um, a cup of frozen mixed berries.

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Um, a big spoonful of peanut butter and a scoop and a half of chocolate

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or gain, uh, protein powder.

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And it is just.

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It is like so tasty.

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It's one of those things that I just savor every day, even though

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it's the same, I'm just like, yeah.

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And also listeners, well viewers watching on video prepare that there will be

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pieces of berries scattered throughout my teeth by the end of this conversation.

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And me and vow giggle all the time because I'm not that bitch to let my friends

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walk around with shit in their teeth.

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And I'm also girl, so I'll be like, Hey.

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Over to the left, like, I'm taking your finger.

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And I'm like, get in there.

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So I'm like, oh no, I can't do that

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virtually

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with Valerie today.

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Right, right.

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But I have warned the viewers, so I'm prepared.

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We are prepared.

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Now it's time for our first segment, tea and Crumpets, where we tell you what

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we can't stop talking about this week.

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So bow pow.

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Tell me.

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What You can't stop flapping them gums about this like,

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okay.

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So even though we have not yet started season two, which just came out the

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last of us, I am re obsessed with because my dad was just in town for

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a few days visiting and often when he comes, 'cause we're more like inside

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the house, people not like, let's go out in town, do a bunch of crazy things.

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So we'll watch like an entire season of something mm-hmm.

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That he like doesn't have at home or like just that we wanna watch with him.

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Um, yeah.

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So we watched all of season one of the last of us mm-hmm.

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In the last few days.

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And I'm not normally a binger.

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So like when I do that, especially with the show that Intense, some just

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like I live there now, I don't Yes.

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Is wild.

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I have cords.

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Yes, exactly.

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So yeah, I'm just like, you know, it's such an emotional show.

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I'm just like bursting all over the place right now and I think I will need like

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a hot minute of some trash television before I'm ready for season two.

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Yes, I did watch, I did just watch literally yesterday, the

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first episode of season two.

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So you're really gonna be Gagged McGee.

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And I also was kind of sitting there and I was like, fuck,

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maybe I should have rewatched.

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Yeah.

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The first season.

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Mm-hmm.

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Because I'm a little bit like all the things happened.

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Right.

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But it's such a good show.

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So good.

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Okay.

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What's your tea?

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Mm.

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Okay.

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I guess we're like on a TV kick this week.

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Everyone.

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I threw down Good American family on Hulu.

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Have you heard anything of that yet?

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With like Ellen Pompeo.

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Oh, so it's based, yeah, I know.

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I'm like, I didn't know she was anything besides Meredith Gray.

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Meredith Gray Mcy.

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I'm like, okay.

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Me also has never watched Grey's Anatomy.

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Anyways, that's the whole conversation for, but Good American family is a

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kind of like multi-part retelling of the Natalia Grace story.

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Mm-hmm.

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Um.

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So Natalia Grace was someone, is someone that, um, has a rare form of dwarfism

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and I don't wanna like spoil in too much, but the basic story is there's

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like this feud that then happens.

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She's adopted by this family, the Barnetts.

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And so it basically oscillates between like what her point of view

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of the story is and what the Barnett story point of view of the story is.

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Um, loss of.

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Uh, yeah, it's, it's not like spooky.

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It is a little bit, but the like, kind of different perspective.

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Storytelling kind of like turns the wheels a little bit.

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And I say this a lot and I've kind of maybe been gagged by it, but like I'm

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truly not a true crime esque person.

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Yeah.

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Like it just.

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I would listen to it as a teenager, and then I was like, Hey, I have

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panic disorder, Bessie, wonder why, you know, like, turn that shit off.

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So I do, I can do well with something like this where it feels not fully into it.

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And the way that I like look at this kind of stuff is like, I'm not looking to

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like, you know, be up in someone's story.

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Yeah.

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I'm just kind of curious.

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I'm like, all right.

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So it is an interesting story.

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Um.

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Um, it's, they're being released like I think every Tuesday night,

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so I'm like maybe five episodes in.

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So there's still time if anyone ever wants to hop on.

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But yeah, it's interesting so far.

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Cool.

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I'll have to

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check it out.

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Yeah.

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Now it's time for step into my office where you get advice from.

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Your favorite professionally qualified, personally peculiar therapist.

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Our submission for this week.

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Hi, Emerson and Val.

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I've always been a wor, but lately it's next level.

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I double and triple check if I locked the door, reread every text before

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sending and constantly replay combos in my head to see if I messed up.

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My friends say it's just anxiety, but it feels different.

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How do you know if it's just overthinking or OCD from Lock the Door five times.

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Still not sure.

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Oh, listener.

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I know.

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What's your thoughts?

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Oh man.

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I mean.

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Uh, I guess my first thought is just like, okay, this person, like

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you deserve support regardless.

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Yeah.

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Whether this is clinical OCD, generalized anxiety, like you

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deserve support regardless.

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And because that is the general vibe of what's happening here.

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Yeah.

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I think why not like go to an OCD specialist and you know, they will be able

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to thoroughly assess and look at mm-hmm.

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Kind of tease that apart of like, okay, are we looking at full OCD here?

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Are we looking more at generalized anxiety?

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Like I. Because the treatment approach will vary a little bit.

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There will be some similarities.

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Um, but there are a lot of people out there who just like, don't

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really understand OCD, um mm-hmm.

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Like, like me, I, I'm like, I can pass.

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I'm not, I'm not an OCD expert, but I at least am gonna be able to recognize

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when either a, I need to refer to an OCD expert or, yeah, I might know enough that,

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you know, depending on the presentation.

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I can help this person, but there's gonna be people out there who maybe just like

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don't even know what to look for and they can do things to make that worse.

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I, I'm talking like licensed clinicians, so what are your thoughts?

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Yes.

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Yeah, no, I really echoing everything you said.

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Um, and you know, even how we've talked about this clinically before,

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when this has come up for, you know, me with clients and things like that.

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Um.

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You know, this is the teaser.

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This is our whole, uh, bread and butter for today.

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But, uh, the.

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Frequency and or levels of distress and that, and that's how we look

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at it from the DSM type level, this thing, you know, things that

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are happening that you described.

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Listener probably.

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Yeah.

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Especially like the mental kind of replaying of conversations that can

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feel really distressing to people.

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Double and trick, triple checking the lock or worried about the garage door.

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That totally can be.

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Distressing and something that like is very valid to go take

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and flush out professionally.

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Um, and kind of just, you know, like, like do a pulse check, temperature check

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of like, is this taking me, is this chewing up more of like an hour of my day?

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And I think in the dsm maybe it's an hour, I always forget how they changed it.

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Yeah.

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I can't remember.

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Just the frequency of this.

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Mm-hmm.

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And the level of distress.

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Right.

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And if it's kind of popping up in every area of your life, yeah.

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Then go flush it out and have someone assess and see.

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Right.

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And I always like to give myself as an example here because it's so funny.

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Um, since we talk so much outside of the pod, I'm like, have I already

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said this on the pod or have we just talked about it 27 times?

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I know me too times.

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Um, but I'll, I'll use this example because I am not someone with OCD, but

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I do some checking and it's more because whether you wanna call it a DHD or just.

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Uh, in my case, like absent mindedness of doing two damn many things at

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a time and not paying attention.

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Um, I will turn around and check the garage door or if I remember to, ideally

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I will say out loud when I close it.

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Right.

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And, but, and then if I forget to do that, I will often turn back around.

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But it's not distressing to me because if I do that, I'm usually doing that

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within like a minute or two of leaving.

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Yes.

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And so it's not creating disrupt, it's not disrupting my life in significant ways.

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So that would not be.

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You know, a clinical level of distress or disturbance.

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Yeah.

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So, you know, just things like that.

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Like recognize that even if you do weird shit, like yes, it may

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be sort of diagnostically relevant or it may not necessarily be.

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Yeah, I

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think that's fair.

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Yeah.

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Cool.

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It's just like blanked for a second.

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Like glitched

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human parts of human, you know what I mean?

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Right.

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Oh.

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Yes, take care and keep listening.

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And now it's time for the DSM.

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In our DSM, all varieties of dysfunction, spiraling, and meltdowns are welcome.

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In this segment, we break down complicated concepts and common misconceptions

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about mental health, wellbeing, and tell you what we really think.

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And in this DSM we are talking about, I love to be organized.

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I'm.

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So OCD, uh, yeah, Barb.

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Barb.

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Let's talk about the ends, the outs of obsessive compulsive disorder.

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And like I said, this is coming from, and I am an experienced

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clinician and so are you.

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And so we're bringing that knowledge and we're also aware that we are not like.

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Full on OCD specialists.

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So no, um, we will point you to some places that you can look

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for that, but we're going to give more kind of 1 0 1 level.

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I mean, after all, this is like a 45 minute podcast, so sure,

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we're not going super deep, but we can point you to some resources.

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Um, I should have put some podcasts in the show in the.

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In the list here, but we'll put some in the show notes too there, 'cause there's

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some great OCD podcasts out there.

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So, just jumping into the very basics, what the fuck is it?

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Um, the O'S and C's of OCD.

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Of course the o obsession, intrusive, unwanted, often

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disturbing thoughts or fears.

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And the compulsions are the actions, whether internally,

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more mental or physical actions that we do to try to reduce the

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distress that those thoughts cause.

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So it really is that they kind of work in tandem.

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Um, we will, you know, talk about this more, but sometimes it can be

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a little less of the compulsion.

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More of the obsession.

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It definitely differs from person to person, but ultimately,

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OCD is not about logic.

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There's this great, um, sketch that, uh, Bob Newhart did on MAD TV

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in like the mid to late nineties.

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We'll put it in the show notes.

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Have you seen that?

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Where he's like, snap it?

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No.

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Uh, yeah.

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It's a woman basically brings in this.

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You know, phobia of, of, uh, fear of being buried, a light in a box.

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And he's like, well, that's stop at you kook.

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And it's like, it's an iconic skit.

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Um, but yeah.

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And it's, it's sort of playing on that idea of like, well, yeah.

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I wouldn't, like, often the person experiencing it knows that

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there's some level of like, I know this is irrational, right?

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Yes.

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Now, you know, sometimes it gets dicey because there are very real things that,

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that do happen and can happen, right?

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So it's like, well it is, it's technically is possible that you know this, you

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know, dog could hurt you or whatever.

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So there's like a lot of overlap between phobias and OCD.

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But anyway, the point being it's not about logic, right?

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Is, is this is not something that you can logic your way out of.

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Yes.

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And it's really about difficulty tolerating the uncertainty of I, I'm

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afraid this thing is gonna happen and I cannot know for sure, and therefore

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I have to do all of this to sort of protect myself against that uncertainty.

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That potential fear of harm.

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Um, and OCD is one of the more misunderstood, um, mental health

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challenges because first of all, it's often invisible from the outside, right?

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Yeah.

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Like when people think of OCD, they often are thinking about like the person

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who maybe, you know, their hands are raw 'cause they've been watching them.

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500 times a day.

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It's like there are some cases where maybe it is more outwardly visible, but there's

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a lot of cases where you're not gonna know the level to which someone is suffering.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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And I think that, you know, we'll kind of talk about, I.

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We kind of already have, right?

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Where culture and social media or whatever, how we talk about OCD in a

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nonclinical frame where it's like, oh, I line up all my shoes before I go to bed.

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Some people for sure are doing that.

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Yeah.

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And also that's not just like the one trick pony of OCD themes, so

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there are themes and they are broad.

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So just an example of a few contamination.

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So the germs, the illnesses, chemicals, that's probably the

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one that you see culturally.

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Yeah, the most.

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And in media, um, harm.

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What if I hurt someone?

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What if I hurt myself?

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That's a big one.

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Sexual attraction, especially to family members, pets, children, um, identity.

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So when you're kind of flushing out gender identity, sexual orientation,

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religious or moral scrupulosity.

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Am I not following the doctrines of my god, of my religion?

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Am I a bad person?

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Am I a sinner?

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Am I. Well, yes.

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Relationships.

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So constant doubts about your partner or your feelings or how you feel in the

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relationship is this person right for me.

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Uh, relationship.

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OCD Get off social media.

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Uh, sometimes please or recognize those videos are when they're like, if this

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video is for you, babe, it's not for you.

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It's not for you.

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I promise you it's not for you.

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Okay?

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It's just gonna.

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Spiral, um, health, really focusing in on physical sensations.

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Am I blinking correctly?

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Am I breathing correctly?

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Oh yeah.

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Those sensory motor types of sensations.

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Just write OCD.

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So feeling compelled to do something until it feels perfect or complete.

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That's retyping that email, that's locking that door, whatever.

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Um, and then pure O, which I feel like is.

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Culturally and clinically becoming more conversational, where pure O is those

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intense, intrusive thoughts and mental compulsions, but there are no visible

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rituals to follow, to ease the anxiety.

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It is all happening internal inside.

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Yes.

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Mm-hmm.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And a lot of, like I said earlier, misunderstandings about OCD, so people,

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like you were saying earlier, often associated with being just like really

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tidy and perfectionistic or quirky.

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Um, and it's, it's just so sad.

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Like, I can think of, um, adults that I've heard interviewed who

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would say like, oh, well, people just thought I was this quirky.

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A kid who was, you know, in fact really organized, like that can be one

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of the manifestations of it, right?

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Yes.

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Um, and of course we know that that's sort of like caricatured in the media.

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I'm thinking, oh my god, Monica Geller.

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Although, although I'm like Monica Geller might have been diagnostically.

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Um, yeah.

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But all of the, yeah, I'm so OCD things like we just.

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Encourage you if you catch yourself doing that, to rewind those words, because

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what that kind of thing does is sort of trivializes or minimizes this very real.

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Condition that a lot of people are living with.

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So, you know, just watch, like you, you can say like, oh, I'm

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just, I'm being so anal right now.

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Like, you know, Uhhuh, it's the Freudian.

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Right.

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Rather than saying I'm so OCD.

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Um, and again, a lot of people with OCD might know that their fear is either

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irrational or at an irrational level.

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Mm-hmm.

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But they, but the compulsion is so strong.

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Um, and also.

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The, what you were saying earlier about some of the themes, um, often

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what's so distressing about intrusive thoughts is the fact that they are

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often what's called ego dystonic.

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Meaning this is not who I am.

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Like this is not me.

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And that can be extremely confusing for people who don't know what the

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fuck is happening in their brain.

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Like again, stories that I've heard of, um.

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Like with the harm OCD, for instance, of like people who are terrified

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to pick up a knife because they think, yep, well I'm gonna act, I'm

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gonna, I'm gonna like stab my child.

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I'm gonna stab this person.

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Like, I cannot pick up this knife.

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And it's so distressing.

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It makes them think like, oh my God, do I want that?

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So it's really important for anyone who, if you're having a thought.

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That that is intrusive, repetitive, even if it's a very strong thought, it does not

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mean that you want or desire that, right?

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Mm-hmm.

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And that's what we mean by ego dystonic.

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So it's really important to know that, that, you know, even if you have that

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fear, first of all, that's kind of the, the OCD glitch talking to you.

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Yep.

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Um, and second of all, it does not at all mean that you actually have any

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desire to do that or will do that.

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Right.

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Um, right.

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And of course, OCD is often misdiagnosed, underdiagnosed.

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Mm-hmm.

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A lot of people, because of things like that, they're so frightened

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of their own thoughts, so they might not say anything to anyone.

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Um, and a 2021 study, which we'll link to in the show notes found it can

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take up to 13 years on average from onset of symptoms to proper diagnosis.

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And of course, that.

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Is gonna probably depend on how truly disruptive it is

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in someone's day-to-day life.

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But again, yeah.

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Even if outwardly someone can be functioning in society and in their

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life, they might be suffering a lot and very afraid of what's going on inside.

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Yes.

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And I think even if I'm remembering correctly from the study, I

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think the mean age of that.

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Population that they were doing this research on.

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I think the mean age was around 18.

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So this doesn't even include people that have had onset of

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symptoms like when they were kids.

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Mm-hmm.

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Which does happen.

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It can happen, um, for young children as well.

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Sometimes people don't realize, oh, maybe I was having onset of stuff as

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a kid and everyone thought I was being quirky, or they just didn't think about.

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The level of what I was doing or what was happening for me.

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Yep.

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Um, and so why, you know, just stop thinking about it or, you

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know, just, just whatever, that this isn't a treatment plan.

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That's not, that's not the, that's not the course.

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So, you know, OCD can look like that excessive, and I mean, excessive

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reassurance seeking from family partners.

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Therapist.

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That's why it's a very delicate balance.

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If you have OCD and you're in into therapy, it may just be throwing those

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circles around you when it's not helpful, and that can be really hard to break

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from and go see someone that understands how to interrupt those kinds of things.

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Um, avoidance, straight up avoiding the stuff.

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Yeah.

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That causes you that anxiety and distress, so never touching that knife.

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Never going, you know, outside when whatever is there.

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Yeah.

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Um, and then kind of like a lot of internal arguing or I've seen

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people kind of like trying to shake the thoughts outta their head.

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Uh, so there's just, that's just one way where there's kind of a.

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You know, we talk about it kind of being like silent sometimes and all internal.

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Those are some of the things, very outward, observable behaviors

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for people struggling with OCD.

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And so the gold standard treatment CBT, which is cognitive behavioral therapy.

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Under that, you know, we have exposure and response prevention, or you'll

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see it shortened basically as ERP.

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And so, ERP is helping folks with OCD face the feared thought without doing

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the compulsion, because in that OCD cycle, we have the obsession and then

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we do the compulsion to relieve the anxiety of that obsessive thought.

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And it just keeps going, going, going.

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The more times you pass, go and loop.

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That it's going to keep happening and it's just gonna make you feel worse,

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and it does make people feel worse.

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Um, this is not about also proving that the fear is irrational.

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It's solely helping individuals learning to tolerate the uncertainty.

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OCD strives for certainty.

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They want that black or white.

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They want that yes or no.

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And you can't for most of the time.

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Right.

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Especially with those dystonic thoughts.

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Yeah.

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Can I add a little more about ERP?

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Yes.

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So, um, you know, I, we've definitely helped our clients when it's cases

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that are appropriate for us to handle, uh, to create those sort of hierarchy.

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Right.

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So in ERP yes, you're creating a hierarchy of exposures because the

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point being you're not jumping to.

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The 10 out of 10 distressing thing.

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Right?

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Because what that's gonna do is it's just going to flood your system

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and it's gonna reinforce that fear.

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And you're gonna be like, see, this is why I don't do this thing.

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Right?

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Yeah.

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So you, you work your way up that ladder slowly repeating those exposures,

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and as you're doing that, you're building that distress tolerance

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and your, your system is seeing like, oh, that actually went okay.

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Um, and again, same thing with phobias and, um, mm-hmm.

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One of my good friends, um, Amy, Mary Askin, who, I'll, I'll mention

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her a little bit more in a minute, but she runs, uh, Nashville, OCD

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and Anxiety Treatment Center.

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I. Um, and she is always talking about like the crazy exposures

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that they're doing mm-hmm.

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In with their clients because that is their specialty.

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They're doing all kinds of crazy shit.

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Like, you know, how about, how about we try to eat this little snack off

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the bathroom floor, which my son, but it's like sometimes you have to

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go, if that pendulum has swung so far to one side, in order for me to

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recognize that, like, let's say that.

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It's safe for me to use public toilets.

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I, you know, contamination, um, OCD, like in order to do that, I might need

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to, you know, touch the toilet seat in the, in the clinic with my hand.

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Right.

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Things like that.

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Mm-hmm.

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That are like, yeah, we're not gonna normally walk around

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touching public toilet seats.

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But if I can do that, if I survived that, then I can surely sit my butt

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on the one at the Applebee's, right?

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Like on the Applebee's?

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Yes.

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Yes.

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I love, um, I'm like not super into it yet, just haven't really watched.

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I'm so behind, but there's a. Uh, in shrinking, you know, like that's

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the therapist show or whatever where he's working with someone that has

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OCD and he's like, okay, I'm gonna sit down on your couch with my

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outside jeans that I wore outside.

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Yeah.

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And so I joke a lot about like, inside outside clothes.

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Like I'm one of those people where like, I shower before bed

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'cause like, Hey baby, the bed is sacred to me, but I know it's not.

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I know that that's just my little like.

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Ugh, Uhhuh, you know?

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Okay.

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I have a little bit of like contamination freaky with that, but my overall

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tolerance for other contamination esque things is not a big deal for me.

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Yeah.

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So that's even how we can start.

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You know, some people, well-meaning are like, do I have whatever?

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Because I have intrusive thoughts.

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I hear that so much, and I'm like, no, babe.

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Our brains think of like a bajillion things.

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Literally all day, every day.

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And some of them are fucking wackadoodle.

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Exactly.

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It's like, again, clinical level of distress versus

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subclinical, like, oh yeah.

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I mean, to, you know, we've all, I, maybe not, but I feel like almost everyone

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has had that thought of like, oh, what if I'm driving my car along and I, I

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could just, you know, ram it over here.

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Right.

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Right.

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Again, doesn't mean you want to do that, but just because your brain

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generated that thought doesn't mean that you know, you have a mental illness.

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If you're having that thought frequently and it's distressing

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and it's getting in the way of your ability to pay attention, driving.

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Uh, sure.

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Right?

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Different.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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Yes.

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And I think the way, you know, parsing those different kind of layers out,

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we talked about act on the POD before acceptance and commitment therapy.

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This is beautiful.

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Yes.

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For OCD because it's really helping individuals expand

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that ability to tolerate that discomfort, which is very necessary.

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And ACT then has their committed actions kind of component to, um.

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You know, what's the values based behavior, you know?

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So really helping connect with values, which we know from ego, dystonic

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thoughts, is really distressing to people.

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So if you know that that behavior or that action is ego dystonic,

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then what is ego syntonic?

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What is the one that pushes you to towards.

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Your values and the things that are important for you, even when

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you're experiencing OCD symptoms.

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Um, the other thing that I always tell people, which we do with most kind of,

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you know, approaches to treatment, but I think especially with OCD, um, this is

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pretty much always going again on level of severity and everything like that.

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But to start off is pretty much always going to include therapy and medication.

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First line treatments for, um, OCD is definitely those SSRIs, those serotonin

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reuptake inhibitors, just to help reduce some of the symptoms because it, you

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know, you're going and then doing ERP and exposures, maybe, you know, it's a

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lot, like, it can be a lot for people.

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And so that too, for a combo is usually pretty much always the baseline first

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line recommendation for folks with OCD.

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Um.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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And

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really this kind of aligns with that act piece of acceptance.

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Mm. Right.

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Um, the commitment is the, those taking those steps toward what

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matters to you, even if it brings up some discomfort or uncertainty,

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um, that really the more that.

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People with OCD can approach it as like, I, I'm not trying to necessarily

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like cure this once and for all and get rid of it permanently.

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Like Yeah.

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Some symptoms may completely go away.

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Yeah.

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And other symptoms may lessen or shift.

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Um, but it's, you know, it is the kind of thing that tends to

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be a companion, shall we say.

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And the, if we can look at it as living with it versus fighting

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against it, it just creates mm-hmm.

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So much more distress when we get caught in that sort of what act

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would call experiential avoidance.

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Like, I'm gonna try to, you know, do it's, yeah, it's all so overlapping, but, um,

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you know, people even without OCD will get caught in that loop of avoidance.

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Uh, but, you know, sort of doubly so when, when you're

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dealing with this diagnosis, so.

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Um, the more that we can look at it as just like, okay, I can do a lot,

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I can do a lot of things in good OCD treatment to really turn the volume

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down to reclaim my life from this thing.

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And also it might still show up in some ways.

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Um, and it can become so much more manageable.

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Yeah.

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So building tolerance for that discomfort and uncertainty that

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we've been talking about mm-hmm.

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Is not just a treatment goal, it's a life skill, right?

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Yeah.

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It's something that every human being would be served

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by learning how to do better.

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Um, and getting that help is not a failure, right?

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Like it's, you can't think your way out of this kind of thing.

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You cannot logic and rationalize your way out of it, but recognizing that.

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With the right kind of support, you can make a massive, um,

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change in your day-to-day experience of this kind of thing.

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Um.

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I will often, you know, see, like I, I have a client who, um, she did

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not originally come to me for OCD and then we sort of realize that's

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kind of how it happens with us.

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'cause it's like they're, if they're coming, you know, and saying like,

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I have serious OCD, we're like.

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Please go see Amy's clinic or

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whoever else, right?

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Yes.

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Um, but sometimes it sort of uncovers along the way and then

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it's like, oh, okay, I think we already have this rapport.

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I think I can support you with this.

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So yeah, I'm thinking about a couple of those long-term clients and just how

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much their life has changed, how they have, have done things that they never

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thought they would be capable of doing.

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And how it's like every now and then they're like, yeah,

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kind of had like a moment.

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Kinda, but then they work their way through it so much faster.

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Mm-hmm.

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It's so much less distressing.

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So I just like to kind of share that as examples of, you know, even if it

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is something that's still sort of.

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You carry with you, your life can radically change with the right help.

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Yeah.

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Um, yeah.

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And then I wanted to plug, um, Amy's books.

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This is, um, mm-hmm.

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Dr. Amy Mary Ask, and it's called Thriving in Relationships when you

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have OCD, how to keep obsessions and Compulsions from sabotaging Love,

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friendship, and Family Connections.

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So she, she's just brilliant.

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I mean, she is one of the top OCD clinicians in the country,

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um, and often speaks on these things, but as you can imagine.

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OCD can be very disruptive in in any sort of relationship.

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Romantic partner, parent, child, um, friends, friendships can be really

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disruptive if it goes untreated.

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So looking at.

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How can, how can that be a part of your sort of approach to this is I am not

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gonna let this destroy my relationship.

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So, um, and then of course your loved ones learning about it can be super helpful.

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Yeah.

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Well, and I think the loved ones kind of taking on like an educational kind of

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role is very important in relationships.

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I remember having.

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Someone that I was doing sex therapy with that was having, you know, some like

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concerns with their OCD and what that was looking like in a romantic partnership.

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And so being able to have necessary boundaries, really making

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sure and being curious about.

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Oh, I may have accidentally, uh, given in to the reassurance

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seeking of my partner, and I didn't realize that's what I was doing.

Speaker:

And you know, it's kind of a very delicate balance between supporting

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your people versus intentionally and or unintentionally accommodating

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the obsession, uh, compulsion cycle.

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It can be tricky and also couples work, family work with people that know OCD and

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know how to help is a really great step.

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Um.

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And I think, you know, like, duh, but like be patient, right?

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Like this isn't about logic, it's literally about fear and

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safety with most of it, and being able to celebrate the wins.

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I think, you know, with OCD treatment, people that go through and like you

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said, are able to say, oh shit, I know I had a little bit of a moment, but

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the way that I handled it this time.

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I've probably shaved about two and a half hours off of the way that I

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used to get caught up in the spiral.

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That's really huge and I think so much of how we can talk about

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the subsets of anxiety based disorders, where you may always have.

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And you know, you may always be prone to intrusive thoughts.

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You may always be prone to having anxiety.

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It may just be the thing that you don't just cure and it never goes away again.

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Some things could, but overall, maybe it doesn't, but it's about tolerance

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and learning that your relationship to that is how it needs to be.

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And that's okay.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Hmm.

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But for real, wow.

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OCD is not just a punchline or a trope.

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It is a sort of brain loop glitch that can be incredibly challenging for people

Speaker:

to get the care that they need, know what they even need in terms of that expertise.

Speaker:

Um, OCD is not a death sentence.

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It's not mean that, oh my God, I have this thing and I'm, my

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rest of my life is gonna suck.

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You can get the care that you need to make these transformations that we're

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talking about and the tools that can help you align more with the value, with your

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values and the life that you wanna live.

Speaker:

So go just, you know, get some support.

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We all need it.

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We all do.

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And now our musical segment.

Speaker:

Now, that's what I call, okay.

Speaker:

Where Emerson and I each share a song with each other each week as representatives

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of our respective generations.

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We tell you a little bit about the song or artist, and then we press pause,

Speaker:

we share the song with each other, and then we come back for our live reaction

Speaker:

and we're capturing it all on a Spotify playlist linked in the show notes for you.

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So Val, what is your song for the week?

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Oh my God.

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You, uh, don't even wanna know because, but I do.

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I really do.

Speaker:

I may have gone down a we rabbit hole.

Speaker:

Um, and I will, let me explain and then we'll play this on.

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So for whatever reason, uh, my brain, when I was thinking yesterday

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about what song do I wanna bring?

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This, this, uh, duo who goes by this well season popped into my brain.

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I don't know why.

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Mm-hmm.

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Um, but it did.

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And I was like, oh my god.

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This their first album, which self-titled.

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Um, 2007, it, it, so many tracks on there are just phenomenal.

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And it comes from, uh, those tracks are in the film once, which if you've

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never seen it, put it on your list.

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It is like a, an iconic.

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Indie musical film that tells a sort of dramatized version of their collaboration.

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Um, them being, oh, Glenn Hansard, who's the front man of Irish

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band, rock band, the Frames, um, they've been, they're still active.

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They've been active since like the early nineties.

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And Marta Air Glove, who is a Czech singer and pianist.

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So, so they created this collaboration and then all of, a lot of those are,

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all of those songs from that first, um, debut album are a part of the

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film once it's just so beautiful.

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Mm-hmm.

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Um, and then they've done a little bit more throughout

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the years, but not, not a ton.

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They recorded another album a couple years later.

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So I watched that movie when it came out and I became obsessed with

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the album 'cause it was so good.

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And I saw them and I had totally forgot about that.

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I had gone to see them, but when I was going to pull up the song on

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YouTube, the one that I chose, I was like, wait a second, stubs Barbecue

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in Austin, which is a music venue.

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I don't even know if they're still around anymore, but it was one of

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my favorite places to see shows.

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Mm-hmm.

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And I was like, did I go to that show?

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And I'm like digging through my e my old email like.

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From my maiden name, email address that I still have.

Speaker:

And sure enough, I did go to that show November, 2007.

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So the clip that we're gonna watch is from that show, or the, the song

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we're the recording we're gonna watch.

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Um, he's just a phenomenal vocalist.

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This one is just Glenn.

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Um, but no, so the rabbit hole, it took me down.

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Was then I was like, you know, on the Wikipedia, like, wait a second.

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What are they?

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Wait, wait.

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They're touring.

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They're touring because this is not like a, they're not like tour, you

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know, releasing albums frequently and touring, like they're not still super

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active, but they're currently, um, they recently released a new song and

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they're touring the Europe and the us.

Speaker:

So who went and bought, they're not coming to Nashville of course.

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So I was like, okay, we've got Indianapolis, Cincinnati, or Atlanta.

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They're all about four hours away.

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Which one?

Speaker:

So, so then I'm like, okay, we decided on Indy.

Speaker:

So then I have to look up all of the view from my seat ratings to

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determine which seats we're gonna get.

Speaker:

And then I also have to read.

Speaker:

Too many reviews of different Marriott hotels to determine

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which hotel we're gonna stay at.

Speaker:

So therein went on 90 minutes of my day yesterday.

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That all started with this song.

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If you give them out, shout to cookie.

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Shout out to our first episode.

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Welcome to the fucking rabbit Hole It all.

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Oh my

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God.

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So anyway, now I will, uh, open this song and screen share it.

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It, I hope you love it.

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And now.

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Um, Chris and I will be heading to Indianapolis in July to see them live.

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Ooh, thoughts.

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Okay.

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My brain was swirling with different things.

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One of the things that I'm thinking about, and like, maybe this isn't

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true, but it, this, the story that you painted, this feels very Daisy

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Jones in the Six coded to me.

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Like, Ooh, I've not read it, but I've heard is, and it says movie or a show too.

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It's on Prime.

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It's a show.

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Okay.

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Where like, you know, people are kind of collaborating and it's like.

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You know, kind of juicy and messy or whatever.

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Yeah.

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So I'm like, hmm.

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Um, two, I know what part of the brain lights up for me when I hear an Irish man

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speak, but I'm like, yeah, I'm so fucking literally talk and then like scream is.

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Scream, sing like, yeah.

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And like standing on there with like low light with a guitar, I'm like, oh.

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So I would've been in the front row, like, we're falling in love.

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No one worried like the Paris social nature to an Irish man with a guitar.

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I'm like, yeah, this is in my fucking roots, baby.

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Like, what's even, yes, it's kind of obsessed.

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With this moment.

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I need to go

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check now.

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Oh my God, I love it.

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Please report back when you watch once because you will be Yes.

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In, in Lu.

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Okay.

Speaker:

I'm excited.

Speaker:

Damn.

Speaker:

Oh my God.

Speaker:

Okay.

Speaker:

What track

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did you bring today, honey?

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Okay, so I feel like mine is just not as entertaining, but the brain loop that

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I, no pun intended, really have been on.

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Um, has been Ariana Grande.

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Now listen, everyone has their hot takes.

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Is she a little problematic?

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Uh, fucking for sure.

Speaker:

Call me a real music listener.

Speaker:

'cause I critique the artist that I like.

Speaker:

And this song, Twilight Zone, is from her Deluxe of Eternal Sunshine, which

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is her seventh studio album, which was released in March of last year.

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The deluxe just released literally last month's, Val, so like you're getting.

Speaker:

Fresh perspective, fresh honey, you're kind of ahead of the curve.

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Some of the girls have not caught up to Deluxe yet, so

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just a queen of a breakup song.

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She's in her healing era post Wicked.

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I I, I want to frame this song for you, like, I want to listen to this

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song like at like, kind of like a gross, kind of like dirty club a

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little bit and like I kind of have like I'm drinking a vodka cran and it's.

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Sucks and like I'm sweating a little bit and like I'm kind of going through

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something and like the overall vibes are just kind of beautiful melancholy.

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So like that's the precursor because I think the girls aren't really

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getting it, but like I get it.

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And I want you to get it.

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I feel that

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for you.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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All right.

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It's got it.

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We've got our vodka cran.

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We're in the divey dive.

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All right, dive.

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Let's bring it.

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Lovely.

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Oh my God.

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Okay, so I went next level in my, taking myself into the scene at the bar.

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Well, yes, because when I was in that space yesterday of like remembering

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this time in my life of like, I'm 21.

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I am.

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Going to all these shows with my little boyfriend at the time.

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Yeah.

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I just graduated college early and, and, and then he broke up

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with me not too long after that.

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And that was like, I'm usually the breaker upper, it's just, you know,

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so it broke.

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My little heart was shattered.

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And you believe those lyrics?

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I was just like, yes.

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This is 21-year-old me, way before this song even fucking existed in the

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bar with my Cray just crying and then being like, now I'm where I'm supposed

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to be and I don't even wanna call you.

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And these songs are not about you.

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So fuck you.

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Yes, fuck you and no, that's okay.

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And you understood the vision.

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Like, I'm trying, I'm meet with everyone.

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I'm being so fucking annoying.

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I'm like, but do you get it?

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And like the others, you know, we transition.

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Like I love a song where I'm like, I'm twirling around at a

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bar and just going through it.

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It's main character energy.

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If you don't get it.

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Sorry.

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Also generational, um, reference.

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Do you know the, where that album title?

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Do you know what that album title is referring to?

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And so well, yes, not because I've watched it, but because Mama had her research.

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Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless One.

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It's her favorite movie.

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I think like that's why it's in my

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top 10 for sure.

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So definitely put it on the list.

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It is, oh, Jim Carrey and Kate Winslet at their finest.

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Yeah, it seems, uh, fucking heartbreaking.

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So I need to be in the right, mentally destructive Yes.

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To like really feel the piece of media.

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You know what I mean?

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Yes, yes, yes.

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And now for our last segment of the show, welcome to Fire Dumpster Phoenix.

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It is rough out there, y'all, and we need all the hope we can get.

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It's time to go dumpster diving for some positive news and rise from the

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leftover Happy Meal ashes together.

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So I initially saw this on TikTok, but then I plugged the link for later.

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Skater if you wanna go read up, but over, I just titled this, humans Are So Cute.

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Over 300 people in Michigan showed up to Michelle Lin's serendipity books to help

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her move her entire inventory, which was only 350 feet away, like her new space.

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Over 9,000 books were passed along a human chain, and the task

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was completed in just two hours.

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Community members just gathered and they were passing the books

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all the way down and they were just like, oh, I've read this.

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Oh, I haven't, oh, this is cool.

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Oh, blah, blah, blah.

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They just described the overall experience as so pleasant and they enjoyed talking to

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one another, and she posted and was like, thank you so much, Chelsea, for everyone.

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Coming out and helping and I was just like, wait.

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Humans can be so precious and sweet and cute and loving towards one another and

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like saved this lady having to like stop, like, you know, close her, shop up, miss

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on a couple of days of profit, move a ton of shit by herself, hire people.

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It was really one of those moments where it was the whatever post

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that's been tickling in my brain of like, sometimes like, this

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isn't the exact verbiage, but like.

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Uh, you know, convenience and community like mm-hmm.

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We're in such a convenient society.

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Sometimes yes, being in community is to be inconvenienced, but that's the point.

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That's the point of being in community.

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So this tickled my brain and I was like, oh my God, I love people.

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Love.

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Yeah.

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Sometimes we're not absolute shithead monsters.

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Well, right.

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And that's refreshing

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in these, in these times, in these dark times.

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Okay.

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My story is nary a week ago.

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A 2-year-old boy wandered away from his home in Arizona and ended up

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seven miles away on this dude's ranch.

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This guy Scotty Dutton, who, um, has this property and his dog, Buford.

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Discovered this little wandering boy boden.

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Um, the, so Buford often is patrolling the ranch, and he appeared to have

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protected and shepherded boden to safety after discovering him because.

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Um, and the, this was overnight too.

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He was, this 2-year-old boy was out alone in the desert with this dog

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overnight, my seven miles from his home.

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So then he wakes up, the rancher wakes up, he goes out to his driveway, and lo

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and behold his dog beauford sitting there next to this little 2-year-old child.

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And by that point he'd already heard about the missing boy, and

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he is like, alright, thanks B. So the boy was not injured at all.

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I mean, just amazing.

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So Buford, this five-year-old, great Pyrenees and Aole mix, natural

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guardian, um, a truly good boy.

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Oh

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my God.

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The goodness boy.

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Maybe to ever beford.

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You're kidding.

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I'm so upset.

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Look up Buford's picture.

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Click the link.

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It's like.

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Oh, so cute.

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I'm sure he's so gorgeous.

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I can't even shout out Buford.

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Oh yes.

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Alright, listeners, that's how we got for you today.

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Stick around.

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We'll be back as we do.

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We will.

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Bye bye.

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This has been another episode of But For Real, produced by Valerie Martin and

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Emerson writer and edited by Sean Conlin.

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But for Real is the Gaia Center production.

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The Gaia Center offers individual couples and group therapy for clients

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across Tennessee and in person in our Nashville office, as well as

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coaching for clients worldwide.

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For show notes or to learn more about our work, visit gaia center.co or find us

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on Instagram at the Gaia Center and at.

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But for Real Pod

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But for Real is intended for education and entertainment and is not a

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substitute for mental health treatment.

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Also since we host this podcast primarily as humans rather than clinicians, we

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are not shy here about sharing our opinions on everything from snacks and

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movies to politicians and social issues.

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Thanks so much for listening to this episode.

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See you next time.

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Bestie.

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About the Podcast

But For Real
Welcome to But For Real: the podcast where all your swirling thoughts about mental health, pop culture, and how to human are blended into one delicious variety show, co-hosted by therapists Valerie Martin (resident elder millennial ✌️) and Emerson Ryder (resident Gen Z 🫶).

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Valerie Martin