Episode 29

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Published on:

15th Oct 2025

The Self-Growth Industrial Complex 🔍

Conversations around self-growth are all over every media platform these days – and while introspection and commitment to growth and change is important, it’s easy for it to be an all consuming trap that’s actually the opposite of growth.

In this episode, Valerie and Emerson take a deep dive into the history of the self-growth industrial complex, explore what’s useful, debunk what’s not, and give you real advice on how to tackle self-improvement without spiraling.


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DISCLAIMER: But For Real Podcast is not a substitute for individualized mental health treatment or healthcare. This podcast is solely for entertainment and educational purposes. If you are in crisis, please utilize crisis support services, such as the Crisis Text Line (Text START to 741741 in the US) or the 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline: (Call 988 in the US), or visit www.findahelpline.com for international resources.

Transcript
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Welcome to, but for Real, a variety show podcast co-hosted by two therapists who

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also happened to be loud mouth feminist.

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I'm Valerie, your resident elder, millennial child free cat

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lady.

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And I'm Emerson, your resident, chronically online Gen Z brat.

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And on the show we'll serve up a new episode every other week that will take

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you on a wild ride through the cultural zeitgeist, mental health and beyond.

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You'll

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definitely laugh and TBH sometimes maybe cry a little because this

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is a silly and serious show.

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Buckle up my friends, and let's get

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into today's episode.

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Your type A is like, you know, staple.

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Wait, wait, cracker.

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Ugh.

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I mean, it's better than sex, I think.

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Sean, you better keep that in there.

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We are cracking open the liquid crack this morning.

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The

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liquid crack.

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Indeed.

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And both of us, every time we see each other, we're both like.

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Hiding it.

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Look at me.

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We're like, I'm like, don't look at me.

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But today we're in unity.

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Mama.

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Loud and proud.

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Cheers.

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Cheers.

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And if you are listening, instead of watching, what we are choosing

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is our respective Celsius and Alani.

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Well, yes.

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You

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know,

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just,

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just girl caffeine.

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Yeah, yeah.

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You know, it's fine.

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I literally said right before we started, I was like, and my gi, in

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two hours, we're gonna hear from her.

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Yeah, right.

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My anxiety, we're gonna hear from her and is it poison maybe?

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Sure.

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But like whatever low dose I worked out three times this week,

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I can have a little bit of pink crack via Paris Hilton, you know?

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Oh my God.

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When Kim did the Alani flavor.

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The Kimm made.

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Yeah.

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I warned.

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I grieve her.

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I wish for her back deeply.

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I heard they merged.

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Yeah, but Celsius, like, uh, Celsius bought Alani.

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They did?

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Yes.

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And everyone was like, it can't change Kalani's flavor.

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I was like, just calm down ladies.

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It's

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okay.

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It'll be

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fine.

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It's gonna be fine.

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Oh my God.

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Okay, here we are.

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We're back to gaba.

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Dabba.

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Zooing.

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You know

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Gavin?

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Oh my god.

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Did I cut off our intro question?

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Oh, that's okay.

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Accident.

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I remember it.

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Okay.

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My intro question was, you know, 'cause of course for our whole topic today,

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but I think I just put down like.

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What is your current relationship to your self growth or your personal development?

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How long do we have for this question?

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And I, as I wrote it, I said, Valerie will write three novels on this, knowing her.

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Um, of course we will dive in further Yes.

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Later in the episode.

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Interesting.

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So I, I will keep it brief and just say that like, my current

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relationship with it is that this is.

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A perpetual edge for me.

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Sure.

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Of like where that line is between Yeah.

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Growth and improvement and like the improvement.

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Hamster wheel, treadmill, treadmill situation.

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Yeah.

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Um, which is not particularly a fun place to be.

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Sure.

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But I would say that right now, in this particular moment,

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I'm feeling pretty good.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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How about you?

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I

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feel, I feel a little.

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Ambiguity to my relationship with this right now.

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Yeah.

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Um, I historically can't stop talking about being 26.

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That's probably my tea and trumpets every day.

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But I'm like, I know that the prefrontal cortex maturation, culturally,

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we talk about 25, I feel like 26.

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I'm like, uh, like something is unlocking.

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Like I'm, but I'm like scared.

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But I'm also curious right.

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To where I'm thinking, oh, like.

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Now there's certain things that I just don't think about.

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I just like do, which is kind of fun.

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Okay.

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But then I'm also like, Hmm, is this it?

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Like, I'm kind of scared.

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So I feel like in therapy recently I've just been like, what is, what is a spark?

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How do I, how does one find their spark?

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How does one get their spark?

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Back, how do you reintegrate spark as an adult?

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Damn.

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Um, and so I feel like it's really kind of my like selfish reasons for

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wanting to talk about this today.

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'cause I've just been chewing the fat on this like in my personal

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work, um, to where I'm like, I have pockets of my life where I'm like

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stepping into a little bit more.

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And that feels exciting.

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And I also historically.

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Uh, fall off on things.

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Yeah.

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To where I'm like, habits are difficult for me or like the self discipline.

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Yeah.

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Which we've talked about before.

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But, um, yeah, I feel a little bit like ambiguous about this right now and because

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I'm like, bitch, you're 26 years old.

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Like, you have no idea who you are yet.

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Like it's, we're cooking that right now.

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Right.

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You know, so it's like, well, to be continued.

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Yeah.

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You know, as much as I like to overly control things, but I'm like.

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See what happens.

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It's

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still, as Kayla wrote and a lovely blog post that she did for the Gaia Center

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about like being in your twenties.

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Yes.

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But I would say like, spoiler alert, this is forever.

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It is in process of becoming.

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Yes.

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So it is not like we reach that destination.

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Right?

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And then it's like, mm. Yeah.

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So shout out Maslow's self-actualization.

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We're gonna turn it out.

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So, oh man.

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Now it's time for our first segment, T and

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Crumpets, where we tell you what we can't stop talking about.

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This week, mine.

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This week I'm telling everyone with ears.

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Okay.

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So, and probably some beings without ears that they have to watch this film.

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Bob Trevino likes it.

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Okay.

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Um, so this.

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Came out last year.

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Mm. Though it may be just in the streaming world this year.

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Okay.

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Um, it premiered at 2024 South by Southwest Film Festival.

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Mm-hmm.

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Where it took away the Grand Jury Award and audience award in the

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narrative feature categories.

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Okay.

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Um, starring Barbie Ferrera, who I didn't know, but I guess she's in Euphoria.

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Euphoria.

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And John Zamo, who's kind of like an icon.

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Yeah.

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Um, and written and directed by Tracy Lehman.

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And this is partially.

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Um, a true story from her life, which is so cool.

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Mm-hmm.

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So I won't say a lot about the plot other than like, it's a lovely, like,

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intergenerational, like guess what?

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Like platonic, uh, relationships can still exist between like men and women,

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you know, hetero men and women like, and it's just, it will break your heart,

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but also like, make you feel human.

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Okay.

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So was I sobbing?

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I was, I watched it by myself and I was like, I already put on my night serum.

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And now I have left it away.

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So that was a lesson March.

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You're like, I just got rid of $5.

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I know

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Care.

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So what's your tea this week?

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My tea is the Abby Young Hair Method.

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Have you ever heard?

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No.

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Okay.

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So this is not a new concept.

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Also, I'm historically just late to the game.

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Um, so Abby Young, she posts content like on TikTok and across the different

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platforms, but she went really viral for talking about like her hair method.

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Okay.

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And she, I think like has a certification as a tologist and things like that.

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So a lot of what's a tologist, I think it's like, I don't.

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I mean, I guess it's hair scientist hair, hair science.

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Like T-R-I-C-H-O-K.

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Oh, Uhhuh.

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Ologist.

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So I was like, wait, what the frick?

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So now I kind of wanna learn so much about psychology.

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I'm like, oh, but I appreciate the kind of like science stuff.

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'cause she was doing a ton of myth busting.

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How I found her was she was like, everyone is like.

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Oh my God.

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You can't have sulfates or like stuff in your right.

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And she's like, yes, the fuck you can like your hair.

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Like it's good.

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Be dead.

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Yeah.

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Like it be dead and it needs shit.

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So I didn't like sum it up as nicely as she did, but um, she has like this whole.

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Method and I can feel a little bit of people being like,

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oh, he's probably sponsored by these braids.

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Or I'm like, bitch, whatever.

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Just lemme have this.

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No, just lemme have this.

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And I've been on a hair journey.

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Okay.

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Without like really realizing your hair always looks good.

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Thank you.

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Yeah, I had a chopped ass haircut.

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Mm. I think in summer of last year.

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And everyone really liked it, but I mean, I just went way too short.

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Okay.

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For my liking.

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And so I kind of spiraled for like mm. Three months.

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And then I was like, wait, let me try.

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So I haven't necessarily been doing the Abby Young Method since then, but I

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started implementing some of her stuff.

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Okay.

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Mostly kind of like scalp serum and like hair oiling and just like trying

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to take better care of the lengths.

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Yeah.

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I have really fine hair, so like not a lot goes on.

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Mm-hmm.

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Here.

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And like I have virgin hair, I don't dye my hair or anything, so.

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It's just been kind of like a nice extension of self-care to like,

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take care of these locks, you know?

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And like my hair has grown out beautifully.

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I'm so happy with it.

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Um, so it's like nice to take care of yourself in a way.

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Yeah.

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So I like really appreciate like how she breaks it down.

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I don't follow her stuff to the t or every day.

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There's like some products she uses that are expensive that I just skip out

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on, but it's been nice and I'm like, wait, I'm like using drugstore haircare.

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That is like really bomb.

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I'm like, don't sleep on Pantene.

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Y'all like Pan is that girl.

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Like I'm like, I used some like Amika stuff, which is a little

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bit more high end, but like

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it's fun.

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Like drugstore brands do not equal shitty products.

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No.

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Or bad for you products necessarily.

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And that's kind of where everyone was like, it's all bad for you.

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And I'm like, I don't know.

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I was using some higher end stuff and my hair looked like shit.

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Yeah.

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Like, no, it's not always the same thing.

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Right.

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But.

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I've

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just been enjoying it.

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You know what?

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I can't recommend.

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Is chopping your own bangs.

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Okay.

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Because I just have like a chunk here and I'm just like, well, it's just gonna

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exist until I go get it taken care of.

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Listen,

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I cut a little bit of my hair off when I was a kid.

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I was just talking about this at a party a weekend ago where I had a little

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hair here and I was like, fuck this.

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I was just like, was being t. And so I cut it, mama, like

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really close to the, the scalp.

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I was walls.

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I was wall right here for like so long.

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So as I've been like oiling my scalp and stuff, I'm like, Hey,

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remember when you were eight and you cut your fucking hair off?

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Well,

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I cut my bangs as like a 6-year-old and I was about to be the flower

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girl and my aunt and uncle's wedding.

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So believe that I am wearing a hat and all of those.

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I grew like in a

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beanie.

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Yeah, I

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was hat shamed, so love it.

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Oh my God.

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Okay, now it's time for step into my office where you get advice from your

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favorite professionally qualified, personally peculiar therapist.

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Dear M and Val, I feel like I am drowning in self-improvement.

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Every time I open Instagram or TikTok, there's.

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Someone telling me to wake up earlier, heal my inner child, buy

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another supplement, or completely rewire my nervous system.

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I honestly can't tell anymore if I'm practicing self-love or if I'm

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just obsessing over fixing myself.

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Part of me worries that if I stop working on myself, I'll fall

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behind or stay stuck forever.

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But another part of me is just exhausted and wants permission to just be.

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How do I know when self-growth is actually healthy versus when it's becoming too

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much sincerely and with premature dark circles, chronically overwhelmed online.

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Oof, woof.

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I mean, hey, I just wanna like

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clap and just be like, that's the end of the episode.

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Yeah.

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And thank you and good night.

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You are all of us listener.

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Oh wow.

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I mean thoughts.

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Oh my God.

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Just off the dome.

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Yeah.

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I mean.

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So one creator, and I feel like I plugged him on a recent episode.

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'cause I mentioned his book, practice of Groundedness.

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Brad Stolberg.

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Yeah.

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He is like a guy to follow for this content because he

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really calls some bullshit.

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Okay.

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On like just the hyper commodification of not only the wellness industry, but just

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generally self-help, self-improvement.

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Yeah.

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Um, so I was thinking of, of him and like, what would Brad say?

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But I mean, it's What would Brad do?

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Yeah.

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It's just like.

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This is such a complex thing.

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Oh yeah.

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And the answer unfortunately for me is in neither extreme, right.

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Oh.

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'cause I think that that's part of the problem is that yes, you know, we, we

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get like maybe oversaturated overwhelmed with the kind of personal growth and

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like, I really think that can be deeply problematic, which we'll get into.

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Yeah.

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But also like the answer is not to just be like, well, fuck it, I'll just do nothing.

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Yeah.

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And so, and, and I do feel like there's a little bit of that sort of polarized

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discourse of like, just rest and just be compassionate with yourself.

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Mm. Mm-hmm.

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And so, yeah, I think it's like discerning, right?

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It all comes back to discernment and like, what is your true north?

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And how do you steer in that direction without expecting perfection?

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Sure.

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And being deeply honest with yourself.

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And this is something I am actively, I, I mean, I'll, I'm sure I'll be

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learning for the rest of my life.

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Sure.

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What is true and genuine for me versus what am I sort of

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trying to shape myself into Yes.

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As a certain identity or perception, um, both to myself and others.

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And so that's.

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Woo.

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Yeah.

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What do you think?

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No, I really heard on like that last piece with like the shaping of self

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where, I don't know, like we're just like in this like hyper content time where,

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and also just like, I don't know, like within the throes of Western culture, we

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love a fix, we love a bandaid, we love like the thing that changes your life

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and makes you the best version of you.

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And I have clients all the time that talk about, you know, we

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talk about this where we're.

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Over-functioning or under-functioning and, and just like how it makes you

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kind of feel like shit both ways when you're doing either of those things.

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And, um, it's really not, there is really not one way to approach this.

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Like, there are so many contributing factors into what this means.

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And that's why I think the title, like I put the, like I threw the

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word industrial complex in it, right?

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Because it's just so fucking layered.

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Yeah.

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Um.

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And really to this listener, you know, like the discernment piece

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is huge, which is kind of like take a shot every time we like talk

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about discernment on this episode.

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So, but I mean, learning about discernment changed my fucking life.

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Learning how to like ride in the middle path changed my life.

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It changed how I show up as a therapist and it changed how I show

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up in my relationship with myself.

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So like, knowing that life is literally pretty much always not

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gonna be on either of those extremes to which we seek to prescribe in.

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Helps a little bit.

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Yeah, it gives a little bit of that wiggle room.

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Um, the first thing I'm like, please get off the fucking internet.

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Or you don't, because that's rich of me to say, 'cause I'll

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be consuming the internet.

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But like, please think of how you're consuming this content.

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Right.

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First off, yeah.

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Just because home girl is like putting her little sleeves like this and cutting

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fruit in a bento box and going and doing her human design and going to

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Pilates at 5:00 AM six days a week.

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Like that's for content, right?

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Like I'm sure she may, yoga Girly might actually be doing

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that, but like it's content.

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Yes.

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Please take a step backwards and think about what the.

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Actual fuck is sustainable

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for you.

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Right.

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And that is what can you do?

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That is, I know we've talked about that before, but it's so key to remember.

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Yeah.

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That so much of these things that people are saying, well you gotta do

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this and you gotta do this, and oh my God, let me tell you about this.

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It changed my life.

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I mean, discernment, of course.

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Yes.

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But all the external things that allegedly change our lives.

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It's that so much of that is feeding the content machine.

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Yes.

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And, and so it's not just products, it's also rituals which surprise most

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of those rituals require products.

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Mm-hmm.

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It's also self-improvement programs and coaching and all that.

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And like, you know, that, you know, we, we, we both are like

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all about self-development.

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Mm-hmm.

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And I am a coach and love coaching and so it's not vilifying all of

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those things, but without discernment.

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You are a target.

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Yes.

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Mm-hmm.

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Yeah.

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The phone is meant to hook you.

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Please remember that?

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Yeah.

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In all those ways.

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Mm. Okay.

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To be continued here, listener

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for sure.

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Yeah.

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I wanna add one more thing here.

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Go ahead.

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And this is my confession.

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Did you watch my IG reel the other day?

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No.

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So that's me laughing at myself.

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I was like, what did you put in the reel?

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It's like 10 minutes long.

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Okay.

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So listeners will link it in the show notes.

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But as I was sharing in the real, I'm like, okay, I gotta

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share truth while it's fresh.

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Sure.

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And.

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This is, it's all related to this topic.

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Mm. Um, so, you know, we did our alcohol episode recently.

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Yes.

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And it's been about four months since I've had a drink.

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And I just, I, I'll keep this brief here because you can go watch

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the reel for the more detailed, but, um, I just started getting

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suspicious about my rigidity with it.

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Okay.

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Like, like what is the rigidity really about?

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Mm-hmm.

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And,

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and I, uh, I realized that it was like.

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I really think it's a lot more about this identity and this feeling like I

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get to be a part of this exclusive club.

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Yeah.

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Than it is like a innate desire or, or quote unquote need or whatever

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to have that rigid line with it.

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Okay.

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Um, and so, yeah, I mean, I still haven't had a drink, but I sort of had.

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You know, like humbling realization of like, if I'm honest with myself, a lot

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of this feels about like, it's about ego.

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Yeah.

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And sort of shaping this ideal, idealized self.

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And so I think, you know, we'll see, right?

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That's the part of the moral of the story is like, try not

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to be rigidly wed to anything.

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And that the sidebar for that is like, as I shared about in the video too.

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Please by all means.

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There, there are things, and like for me it's veganism.

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Like that's a rigid line for me.

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Sure.

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Of like, it just that feels innate, internalized, uh, or innate, but

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it feels very deeply internalized.

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And so that's like, I have no problem holding a, a firm line there.

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Mm-hmm.

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But for, for a lot of things, and for some people that's alcohol.

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For some people, that's, you know, any drug.

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Sure.

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Whatever.

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It's gambling.

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It's, you know, different things.

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But I kind of realized that for me, like, uh, the grand

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gesture feels a lot more sexy.

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And what feels not sexy is this idea of like mindful fill in the blank.

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Sure.

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And if I'm honest, um, and this is the part that I forgot to say in the video is.

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You know, I think I mentioned that like, well, I just hate thinking about it and,

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and I'm like, I have to think, I have to put effort and intention and mindfulness

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and thought into everything that I engage with because I am a hedonist by nature.

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Mm-hmm.

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So if it's good, I want more of it.

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But that's food that's spending, that's everything.

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Yeah.

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Not all things that I'm just gonna be like, well, I just won't do it anymore.

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It's, well, it's social media, it's all the things so.

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So, yeah, that's what, that's my truth right now.

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And it's, you know, connected to, like, I kind of had the realization a few

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years ago when I was doing this too, which I don't know why I thought this

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time would be different, but that it kind of felt like I was doing like a.

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Uh, the purity version of, you know, like the orthorexia and Yeah, but then

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like, being that best, highest version of self with this wellness thing.

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So again, everyone has their own journey, especially with things like alcohol.

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But I wanted to own that because I'm like, if any of y'all.

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Spot me out having a cocktail and you're like, didn't this bitch

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just talk about not drinking?

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Yeah.

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And that's me tucking my tail between my legs and being like, guess what?

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Sometimes you gotta do that discernment and realize where was this coming from?

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Is this really internalized or is this me trying to be someone?

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So anyway, I wanna do all that.

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Thanks for your truth.

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For one.

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Yeah, right.

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And just like some, you know, like brief commentary around that.

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I think well, like what you're saying.

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Even I caught your comment of like, I don't know why this

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time I thought it was different.

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Well, because we always do, right?

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We always think that we're the exemption or we think that the next time will be

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different in the way that it's, I don't know, maybe sometimes like false belief

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or the ego or just like, I don't know.

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My circumstances may feel different this time around and so sometimes

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it really can be different.

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Yes.

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And that's confusing.

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It is.

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Mm-hmm.

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It's really confusing and kind of throws us, you know, oh

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my God, what's wrong with me?

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Or this or that, but like it sounds like you've really intentionally.

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Owned it and like, no, like tail between the legs, like necessary, right?

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Like there's, I don't know, like I'm, I'm really over like, we have to be just

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prescribed to this one thing all again.

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Right.

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If you need that and that's your truth, and that's the true north, right?

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It's fine.

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Yes.

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But like things are always not that distinct, you

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know what I mean?

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And in a way, I think like, again, for many things, maybe

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not everything, depending on, you know, your individual circumstance.

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Sure.

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But for most things in life.

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We should really be willing to reassess Yes.

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Right.

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Our thinking about things, our thinking about ourselves.

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Mm-hmm.

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And that's kind of what it felt like is like, hold on, let me reassess.

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Yeah.

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So, you know, that's, I, I, I hope to, I strive for that

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in other areas of life too.

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Sure.

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Of being willing to reassess my assumptions, my beliefs.

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Mm-hmm.

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And so, yeah, doing that, that that's self growth.

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Right.

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And it feels messy 'cause you're like, oh, I don't wanna be flaky or inconsistent.

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Mm-hmm.

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But it's like, guess what?

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Sometimes.

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Things change.

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Well, guess

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what?

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Like you change also.

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Yeah.

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Like every version of yourself is loading right now.

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Yeah.

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And like, uh, there's a version of me down the line that really loves

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something that I hate right now, and I can be open to changing in that way.

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Amen.

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You know?

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Okay.

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Okay.

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And now

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it's time for the DSM.

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In our DSM, all varieties of dysfunction, spiraling, and meltdowns are welcome.

Speaker:

In this segment, we break down complicated concepts and common misconceptions

Speaker:

about mental health, wellbeing, and tell you what we really think.

Speaker:

So I really want us to phrase up and talk about.

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Self-development as a whole.

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Why the fuck we are all so obsessed with it being the best version of ourselves

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and just, you know, of course how that all shows up in healthy and unhealthy ways.

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So I wanted to kind of give some of like the roots of personal development.

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You know, we have, this is a psychology based episode, so, um.

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The early kind of seeds that were planted, you know, the self-help pioneers.

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We have the American obsession with self-improvement going back to the 19th

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century Mama, that's the 18 hundreds.

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In case you don't help, Hey me, we've been here, we've been wondering

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how to be self-actualized and shit.

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So of course Ralph Waldo Emerson, not who I got my name from, unfortunately.

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Um, his self-reliance in 1841, which is framing individual growth.

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As a moral duty.

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Mm-hmm.

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Um, we add in the new thought movement.

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So this is, you know, your thoughts shape your reality, so you've kind of got the

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foundation, no nap hill, all of that.

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Oh, for TikTok manifestation 150 years ago, baby.

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We were planting them seeds.

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We were, okay.

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So then we kind of come into the 20th century expansion.

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So we're looking at motivational gurus, positive thinking, uh, Dale Carnegie,

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how to Win Friends and Influence People.

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1936, babe.

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Norman Vincent Peel the power of positive thinking in 52, both positioned

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self-development as the key to success, mostly in work and relationships.

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We really started to kind of see those throws in work and career.

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Mm-hmm.

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Um, the human potential movement is kind of the sixties and seventies, so

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this is when Abraham Maslow historically comes in the hierarchy of needs.

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The triangle, if you are familiar.

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And that very tippy, top of the triangle self-actualization.

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So his belief that not very many people ever reach self-actualization.

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I actually

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heard That's kind of a myth.

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Really.

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Yeah.

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That was always in my textbooks.

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Right.

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No, I, I was at a

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Maslow talk at a PA and I think, I don't remember the full context of it.

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Okay.

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But I think that it was basically like, yeah, that whatever that

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was was taken out of context.

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So I think, uh, interesting.

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I think he actually believed that a lot of people were capable

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of it, but maybe makes sense.

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Not everyone's gonna choose it.

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Right?

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Well, not, it doesn't mean the same thing for Yes.

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Everyone.

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Exactly.

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And of course there's all the systemic

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variables that might prevent people from being able to get there.

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But more so I think that a lot of people aren't necessarily

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gonna choose that lesson.

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They're not capable.

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Right.

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Interesting.

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Okay.

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Maslow, sorry babe.

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And then we have Carl Rogers on the scene.

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So he's one of our like therapy addie's, unconditional positive

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regard, client centered therapy.

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So we're really starting to like hit therapy, think about

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ourselves, talk about shit.

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Um, we kind of have this like psychological and then like

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spiritual edge that comes in.

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So everyone has untapped potential.

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We have retreats and Big Sur yoga, hot tubs.

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Psychedelic.

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Yeah.

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Are booming.

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So this is really kind of like the birthplace of personal

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development retreats, you know.

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All of those jazzy things.

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And then we had the capitalist turn in kind of the eighties and nineties.

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So enter Tony Robbins, Stephen Covey, seven Habits of Highly Effective

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People corporate Training industry.

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This now starts becoming a multi-billion dollar business, and the focus is

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really kind of shifting from inner wholeness to outer performance.

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So how are you perceived?

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What are you putting out?

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Maximizing productivity, climbing ladders.

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Hustling, and then of course the digital booms with the two thousands to now.

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Kind of the combination of like neoliberal, pull yourself

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up by your bootstraps.

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With Instagram highlight reels, you get our kind of current pressure cooker.

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So like we were talking about, the wellness self-help industry

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is now valued at over $13 billion in the US per market research.com.

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Um, influencers and coaches are, you know, in the guru role offering personal growth

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in a cute little package, a manifestation journal that's gonna change your life

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content booming the house down boots.

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So, yeah.

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Give us some tea of like why all of this is booming.

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Oh, man.

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And how it could have boomed across

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all of these different eras.

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Yeah, I mean, there's the, um.

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Economic, like instability mm-hmm.

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That when systems fail us, whether that's like housing or wage

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gaps, wealth disparity, um, that personal growth can sort of feel

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like, well, I can control this.

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Yes.

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Prosperity gospel.

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Basically, if, like, if I, you know, just do all the right things,

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then I too can have what these people, the Joneses or whatever the

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fuck I can have, what they have.

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And what's hard is like, and this is but the beauty and

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curse of the American dream.

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Yes.

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Right?

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That like, well, if you work hard enough like this, look what this person did.

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Rags Tori.

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We love an rag, underdog register story.

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Oh my God.

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Um, and the fact is that it does happen.

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Right?

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And so.

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Unfortunately that can get, um, overly generalized and then everyone can feel

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like, well, if I just tried harder mm-hmm.

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If I just manifested better or whatever, then I would be, you know, in a

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better financial position, whatever.

Speaker:

So it's, it is very tricky because of course, like if you.

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Have a belief that you're always going to be stuck where you are.

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Mm. That belief could influence your beha, your thoughts, your behavior, et cetera.

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Mm-hmm.

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Um, however, spoiler alert, positive thinking is not going to be the

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be all end all for most people.

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No.

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Um, there's also that hyper individualist culture, right.

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That this framing of it being a moral good and, and this is

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where like it, you know, it's.

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It's tricky.

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Again, it's not black and white because I do think that like, wouldn't it be

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wonderful if, and um, there's this organization heroic that I'm involved

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with and a big fan of, um, and their mission is like 51% of the world's

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population flourishing by 2051.

Speaker:

Mm. Like why settle for just helping people survive better?

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Like what if we could help people feel like they were stepping

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into feeling more fulfilled and.

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You know, content and all these things rather than just like,

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just having food on the table.

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So it's a beautiful goal, but again, in an individualist culture, it can

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still sort of feel like, well, if I am feeling stagnant, like that's all on me.

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So it is, is complicated.

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Um, obviously all of this is super marketable.

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Yeah.

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Growth sells the, um, oh, what's the word I'm looking for?

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Um, lifestyle influencer content.

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Right?

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Oh my god.

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Of like.

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You know, if, if I see this content and I'm like, damn, her life looks amazing.

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Damn my life, I'm like, I wanna be like her.

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Right?

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I wanna be demo Yes.

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Day in my life.

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Right.

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That it's like, we see this and it's aspirational.

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Yeah.

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That's another thing that I didn't think to put on here, and I, I, I'm

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not well versed in enough to like fully, um, articulate it, but self

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discrepancy theory is this sort of psychological theory of like this.

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You know, the gap between our current self, our ideal self, and,

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and it can create a lot of distress.

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Sure.

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Right.

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So, um, when that distress is present, it's a very good opportunity to market

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something to that person and just say, you know, well, if you put this in

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your life, you, if you went to this retreat, if you hire this coach or

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whatever, then, then you'll be heard.

Speaker:

Right.

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Oof.

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Mm. So, yeah, we're just, we're obsessed with growth.

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We're afraid, like the listener, Rodin said, of falling behind Dun dun dun.

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Yeah.

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And, and it's, it's almost competitive, like you were saying, like, well, if she's

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at Pilates at 5:00 AM like, why am I not?

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Mm-hmm.

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And of course, we don't know the ins and outs of.

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Their lives or whatever.

Speaker:

No.

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Um, and we like to feel like we have a sense of control, especially now.

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Yeah.

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Like, I think about like the time we live in and with AI and everything,

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like we are grasping at control.

Speaker:

Yes.

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So there's probably gonna be even more of this attachment to self-improvement.

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Um, climate change, pandemics, you know, all the potential layoffs coming with ai.

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Um, this cultural myth that we must always be optimizing, work smarter,

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sleep smarter, rest, smarter, better.

Speaker:

I mean, I keep going back and forth with this fucking thing on my finger.

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Mm-hmm.

Speaker:

It's like this morning I'm like, oh, I got a 73 sleep score.

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Mm-hmm.

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And like, oh, I'm not sleeping good enough.

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And it's really the fucking cat's fault.

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It's not mine.

Speaker:

But, well, and then I think I'm like, imagine a Victorian child to give

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'em an aura ring, but like, they're like, what the actual fuck is that?

Speaker:

They're just like, I mean.

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For real though.

Speaker:

They're like my sleep score.

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I'm currently sitting on a bed that has fucking asbestos and

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like arsenic on it and shit.

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Bed bugs and I stink and it's 80.

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Does my AA ring tell me that I stink.

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It's 86 degrees inside my house.

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Oh my God.

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Thank you.

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Like we just maybe didn't need that info all.

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Thank you for the perspective.

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Sure.

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On the Oregon Trail,

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are we.

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Are we true?

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Checking the slave score.

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I can't breathe.

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Do

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we have to laugh at ourselves?

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My God.

Speaker:

No.

Speaker:

We do Laughing is medicine.

Speaker:

So yeah, there's a difference between wanting to grow because.

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You know, like you feel internally motivated.

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Sure.

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You're like, you are like, I know I'm capable of doing this.

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Yeah.

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And it's gonna be hard, but I wanna step into that versus like this

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constant chasing your own tail, feeling like one day I'll be good enough.

Speaker:

Right.

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Um, so I'll just briefly kind of introduce, um, you Damia and Hedonia.

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So these are sort of seen in the positive psychology world as.

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Two orientations to wellbeing.

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Mm.

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And it's not that, like, it's not a black and white, like one person is only

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onic and one person is only hedonic.

Speaker:

We do maybe tend to lean more in one direction or the other.

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Um, but you, ic Nia, which comes out of um, Greek philosophy Sure.

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Is sort of this notion of like, um.

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You know, the Maslow, right, of like, we are, well when we are honoring our

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potential, our purpose, our passion growing, um, and that even though that

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that's not easy and doesn't always.

Speaker:

Feel good kind of acty, right?

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It is, yeah.

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That, that's like, that is the path of most, um, the deepest sort of

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fulfillment and satisfaction life.

Speaker:

The committed actions.

Speaker:

Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And then there's more the hedonic path, which is more

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like what feels good right now.

Speaker:

Mm-hmm.

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Which sure can be unhealthy.

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Stuff of like doing, you know, too many drugs.

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Um, or gambling or whatever.

Speaker:

But it can also be like, what feels good right now is resting, right?

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Oh yeah.

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What feels good right now is like reading a novel that I love.

Speaker:

Mm. But it's really primarily just because if this is what feels good now.

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Yeah.

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And so, you know, while those things clearly the sort of quote unquote

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best, healthiest, whatever approach is some sort of integration of those two.

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Yes.

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Right.

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Both.

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And, but what's hard is that so much of what we do.

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Is sometimes when I'm choosing one, I feel like I'm doing it

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at the expense of the other.

Speaker:

Yeah, right.

Speaker:

We're choosing the short-term pleasure, but it's like, oh, but then I spent,

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you know, $80 on that manicured and it felt really good, but now that's

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hurting my long-term, you know?

Speaker:

And vice versa that if I'm pushing, pushing, pushing.

Speaker:

Well, that's great, but also like it's coming at the expense of sometimes the

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contentment or the rest or whatever.

Speaker:

Mm. So that's, I mean, I'm so intrigued by that.

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I was thinking Me too.

Speaker:

I'm gonna follow that rabbit hole.

Speaker:

Yeah.

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Uhhuh exactly like I was, that was one of my possible dissertation

Speaker:

topics and I don't think I'll go in that direction, but it's fascinating.

Speaker:

And that's.

Speaker:

Why I created this whole like, um, honor Your Spark thing.

Speaker:

Yeah.

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And I'll maybe future book called Honor Your Spark.

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How To Honor Your Spark without Setting yourself on fire.

Speaker:

Cute.

Speaker:

Because I do think, like you mentioned, trademark mentioned a Spark earlier.

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Yes.

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And like we do want, like, there's this innate drive for many of us

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that we want to honor that like, that fire in me that like knows that

Speaker:

I am capable of a lot and mm-hmm.

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And that I have great things inside me.

Speaker:

But we don't wanna set ourselves on fire, do we?

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Yes.

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Mm-hmm.

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Mm-hmm.

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Okay.

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Let's talk.

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You know, we wanted to talk healthy, unhealthy, and all

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of these amazing things.

Speaker:

So the self-love or self-growth, when it becomes self obsession,

Speaker:

maybe we border into some narcissism.

Speaker:

Um.

Speaker:

The rigidity, if we're looking at way too much rigidity, kind

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of like you were talking about within your own discernment, right?

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Well, I'm being really rigid over these things.

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It's not feeling good.

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So that 15 step morning ritual.

Speaker:

I miss one of them and I'm like, well, you know, whatever.

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It's like, Hey, hey Diva.

Speaker:

Maybe this like is too rigid, you know, just hear

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Emerson's voice in your head next time.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

Hey Diva.

Speaker:

Hey Diva.

Speaker:

Maybe like give yourself a break.

Speaker:

Maybe like, have you heard of self compassionate?

Speaker:

It's not laziness.

Speaker:

Have you, yourself a perhaps, um.

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Yeah.

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Or just like not doing your morning reading or you know,

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just too much rigidity.

Speaker:

So there's that piece.

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Endless self fixing.

Speaker:

Yeah, just that like core belief, like, I'll finally be worthy when blank happens.

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No, you're worthy to start if you are a human, you in inherently

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have worth please, um, isolation.

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Just that on me.

Speaker:

So you kind of start to hear a little bit like I'm protecting my peace.

Speaker:

You know, and I'm like, Hey, you're protecting your peace, but like your

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friend does need a ride at the airport.

Speaker:

Like, please help them.

Speaker:

You know, like the cost of community is inconvenience and

Speaker:

like, go Kiki with your friend.

Speaker:

Mm-hmm.

Speaker:

Like I know it's 5:00 AM and you'd rather be at Pilates, but like.

Speaker:

Kiki with your friend at the airport?

Speaker:

Yes.

Speaker:

If so, you know, not every time, but you know that over kind of

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isolation there is kind of interesting to keep an eye on, and I've

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seen that in very, very toxic ways.

Speaker:

Like Oh yeah.

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Both with myself and with others.

Speaker:

Oh, mm-hmm.

Speaker:

Same.

Speaker:

Um, and then, you know, some of, just like the paradox of this, all right,

Speaker:

so this, this pursuit of authenticity and you know, where again, when it

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comes to the social media aspect or just the performativeness where.

Speaker:

I have found myself at times being like, oh yeah, I'm doing this, you

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know, and look at me, look at me.

Speaker:

I'm sober.

Speaker:

I'm like, I'm like, yeah.

Speaker:

I'm like, I hit legs today.

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And I'm like, diva, other people did too.

Speaker:

Like, it's not like, love that I hit legs.

Speaker:

I'm like, I'm like, yeah, upping my weight and I feel strong and that's awesome.

Speaker:

And it's like, okay.

Speaker:

It doesn't have to be like this thing, you know?

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Right.

Speaker:

It can just be like,

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yeah, I hit leg say, and I feel fucking awesome.

Speaker:

Like, right.

Speaker:

How do you feel?

Speaker:

You know, it's be in your life rather than constantly evaluating your life.

Speaker:

Please,

Speaker:

please put the camera down.

Speaker:

Um,

Speaker:

and just, you know,

Speaker:

no duh.

Speaker:

And it's not a hot take, really.

Speaker:

I mean, I guess it is for time, but like if your self care or your like,

Speaker:

opportunities, opportunities of growth are just like actually stressing you

Speaker:

out or making you feel like shit, babe.

Speaker:

It ain't the one like, please take a step back.

Speaker:

Reassess.

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Reassess.

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Yeah.

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'cause it maybe doesn't need to occur in this way, or maybe how it's happening

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in this way is not right for you.

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Right?

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Doesn't mean that you are wrong, but this application is not what

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is most sustainable for you.

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Please just reassess.

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Right.

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It is okay to

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like pause and take the temperature.

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Yeah.

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And to give, it's like a cliche example.

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If 75 hard is not feeling good for you, guess what?

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There's still a lot of other ways that you can meet a lot of those same, yeah,

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quote unquote objectives that are not 75 harder, that are not that rigid.

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I'm gonna start 75 Sparkle.

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Maybe.

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Maybe.

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Maybe we'll talk about that next time.

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So I heard of 75 Soft, but 75 sparkle sounds way better.

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I saw it on TikTok and I

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was like, I'm gonna make my own seven five Sparkle.

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What is it?

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I have like a. It's on my phone.

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Okay.

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You gotta tell us later.

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I'll, I'll tell us later.

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Okay.

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Oh my God.

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So let's talk about what happens when you sort of step away from

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the constant self-improvement.

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Yes.

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There might be, like we talked about the sort of cultural myth around like,

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well if, what are you working towards?

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Mm-hmm.

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Like, are you just like satisfied?

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Yeah.

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Are you just like, are you lazy?

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Lazy and lazy?

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Yeah.

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Um, and of course like.

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Pressing pause on that.

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Sometimes it can actually be really important to allow for the

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integration, maybe the discernment.

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Mm-hmm.

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Um, the acceptance of good enough.

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I mean, I probably said this on the pod before, but like.

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I designed this, um, thing that says, it says enough like four times

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and then at the top on my computer, 'cause it's wider, it says like, I am,

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I'm doing, I have, and on my phone.

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It's just two of those.

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But like that, those are gonna be like my backgrounds forever for the rest of time

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because I need that constant reminder.

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Yes.

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And that, you know, yeah, we can, it's sort of the both and of like.

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It doesn't mean that I'm not working toward any growth, but we

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sometimes we need constant reminders.

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And you're already enough.

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And you're already enough.

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Yeah.

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And you're already the ice cream, even if you wanna add some cute toppings.

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Right.

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Um, and that's very aligned with like the sort of existential, humanistic lens.

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Yeah.

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That this isn't about, like Maslow was never talking about.

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Perfecting and reaching some pinnacle of humanity where you're

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like better than everyone else.

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Yeah.

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It's just about becoming more and more true to who you are.

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Mm-hmm.

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And your path, like you said, that true north and, and I wanna echo

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what you were saying about like the relational piece of it, because the

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unfortunate reality is a lot of this self-improvement, self-development stuff.

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Guess what?

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It starts with that word.

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Self.

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Self.

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And this is not, I mean, I think the pendulum swing, you know, the pendulum

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would be always be swinging to extremes.

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And I think that in some facets of this world, it is way too focused on self.

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Yeah.

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And so, yes, take care of your yourself, love yourself, et cetera.

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But if you're doing that and not also extending that compassion and care to your

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loved ones, to your community, mm-hmm.

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That is what we would call psychological narcissism.

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Yeah.

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Hate to break it to you, sars.

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Yeah.

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And so that, you know, self care that spills out into those, you know,

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extending rings of compassion and care.

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Yes.

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Um, and all of the ways that the systems will.

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Try to keep us hyper fixated on ourselves, um, instead of

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questioning the structures around us.

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Mm-hmm.

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And, uh, I have always loved this Krishna Murti quote, it is no

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measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

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Wow.

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So, if you're, you know, struggling in ways and you're like, God,

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why can't I just figure it out?

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It's like, well, guess what?

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Like, you, you, it's not to say stop trying.

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No.

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Like, if you really care about something.

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But don't expect yourself to be perfectly well adjusted in every way, because

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our society does not allow for that.

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Yes.

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Deeply so.

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Yeah.

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So, um, you know, just the reminder of that middle path, right?

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The discernment, all of the things.

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So just like tying up some of those tidbits.

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So again, like, like you said, that healthy self love that acceptance.

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It's, it's in the self-compassion.

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It's in rest.

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It's in joy, it's in boundaries.

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It's in challenging yourself.

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It's in doing something that you never thought you would

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do before trying new things.

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Um.

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And alongside all of that, checking in on that motivation.

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So, whew.

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Is this, are you improving from curiosity and desire, or from shame

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and fear, or you know, of self perception in a really negative way?

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So again, those healthy signs, you feel freer or kinder or more connected.

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I know the first thing I can notice in my own difference is that when

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I'm feeling connected versus when I'm isolating myself, Ooh, that

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is my first temperature check.

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When was the last time I had a touch point with someone?

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Yeah.

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Deeply.

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So checking in there and then, you know, really keeping an eye on that

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rigidity or that isolation and just that perpetual distorted belief of, I am not

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enough and I won't be until I do blank.

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Yeah.

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It's not true.

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Hmm.

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But for real, but for real, self-development is not about

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endless growth or constant upgrades.

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It can be about rest, it can be about connection.

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Mm-hmm.

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And sometimes that's saying no to someone else, to yourself.

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It's if your self-improvement is making you feel worse, uh, maybe it

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is self obsession in disguise, right?

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Yes.

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So how can you honor your spark without setting yourself or your relationships?

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On fire.

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Mm. Boom.

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Boom.

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And now our musical segment.

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Now, that's what I call, okay.

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Where Emerson and I each share a song with each other each week as representatives

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of our respective generations.

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We tell you a little bit about the song or artist and then.

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We press pause, we share the song with each other, and then we come

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back for our live reaction and we're capturing it all on a Spotify playlist

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linked in the show notes for you.

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My song for this week is Love myself.

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Of course.

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I have to think of something.

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Say, yeah.

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This is by Olivia O'Brien.

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Ever heard of her?

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I don't think so, and this is not okay.

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I would think, uh, the, I love myself.

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That's Haley, Stan Steinfeld, right?

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That's Haley Fel.

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I don't know this

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one.

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So Olivia O'Brien is 25 years old.

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She rose to fame in 2016 when her original song, I Hate You, I

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Love You, was picked up by Nash.

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Um, he's like a really famous.

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Okay.

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Um, the song appeared on his third EP and then she kinda started

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to like, blow up from there.

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So Love myself was released in 2019 and I thought this was T in 2024.

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She launched an independent record label named Girlhood Records after

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she split from Island Records in 2023.

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Over creative differences.

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Her song Jocelyn was like a TikTok COVID bop.

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So I feel like she kind of got like a surgeon.

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I mean, 2016 I was in high school, so I hate you.

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I love you.

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I was like driving to school every day, like, I fucking hate you and I love you.

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Like it was so like me being 17 and thinking I was emo, I wasn't.

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So, yeah, it's kind of a bop.

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This song I feel like, really is about kind of like those contradictions

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of, you know, loving yourself.

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Some self comparison, uh, just trying to like accept yourself in all of these ways.

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So sweet.

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Felt like a good B for Tim.

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All

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right.

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Okay.

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I love a

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good alto.

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And she is alto.

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Yeah.

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I big queen.

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I know her

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purple hair.

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We were gagging and shit.

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We were like, yes.

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Yeah.

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Really gorgeous hair in the video.

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Pretty, she's a pretty girl.

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My mind was like going all over to like.

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Because in one of the verses she's talking about something like, you know, like the

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haters are gonna hate and don't, yeah.

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Talk don't, I don't need you.

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I just need to love myself.

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And like, you know, there's a time and place where we really need that message.

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Especially if like, you know, there's bullies or there's just like, oh yeah,

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stupid assumed, you know, cliquey stuff.

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Um, but I was also thinking of that like whole thing of like the most toxic person

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that, you know is in therapy, being told by their therapist that they're right.

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And they just need to love themselves.

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Yeah.

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And they're, and they're coming

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out of it and they're like, you're gaslighting me.

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Yeah.

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I'm like, you're the worst.

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And there were like a million mirrors.

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So I did love at the end how she like ended.

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Smashing it.

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Listeners, do not smash a mirror with your bare pants.

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Bear fucking put some gloves on.

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Yeah, but she smashes it and then the mirrors fall away and it's

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just rain and like I like that.

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'cause I was like, I'm not here for all these mirrors.

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Like there so much self love here.

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You're like this is giving fun.

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House narcissistic fun house.

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Oh my

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God.

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The worst person you know is in therapy and then they're going to a fun house

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after to like with their body watch.

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It's Blanch DeVere from the Golden Girls if you don't know.

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Oh my God.

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Okay.

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What is your song now?

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Well, this was perfect timing because I am doing this music

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league thing for the first time.

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Okay.

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It's like a social app where like there's a different theme each week.

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So my friend Amy was like, Hey, who wants to join my music league?

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And.

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So every week, wow.

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There's a different theme of like, okay, add your song for the,

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like the all about the lyrics or whatever, like Best Beat Drop.

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And so there's like maybe 15 people or so, and so someone added, this was

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the lyrics week, and someone added this song, which I had never heard.

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It's a, it's like a.

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A low key or, or underground, like 1983 track.

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Okay.

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So it's called Adventures and Success by Will Powers, which is was the

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stage name used by this celebrity photographer named Lynn Goldsmith.

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Hmm.

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She created this self-help comedy music album in 83.

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Called Dancing for Mental Health, and it's like affirmations set to music,

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poking fun at all, the self-help industry and entrepreneurs, um, that are like

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building the listener listeners inner self and encouraging personal growth through

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the thought that anything is possible.

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I, um, so.

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She does some of the speaking and singing downshifting her voice to sound male.

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And there were also a handful of co collaborations, some of whom I recognized.

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Steve Wynwood, who did Valerie call Me Vale.

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Um, Carly Simon Sting.

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Um, and there were two hit singles from this album, and I had never heard of this.

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Okay?

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And so I was cackling when I heard this song the other day.

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What the

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fuck?

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What's that?

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Maybe the weirdest thing I've seen in the past six months in a yay, in a great

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way that feels like an achievement.

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That face is moving the spinning face.

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Yo guys in the video, it's not even like a whole head.

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It is just a face i's like, no, it's literally just a face.

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Ooh.

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It's kind of metaphorical.

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Like it's it's mask.

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It's where you trying to be at the surface, at the mask.

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Go

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watch that quickly.

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Yeah.

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And be careful if you're like taking a garden gummy or something and make,

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because you're gonna be like, whoa.

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Make sure you remember that.

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It is satire, honey.

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Deep fla.

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Okay.

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Oh my God.

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And now for our last segment of the show, welcome to Fire Dumpster Phoenix.

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It is rough out there, y'all.

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And we need all the hope we can get.

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It's time to go dumpster diving for some positive news and rides from the

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leftover Happy Meal ashes together.

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I just saw this and I was like, you gotta be fucking kidding.

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I love a child prodigy.

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So 9-year-old aspiring pediatric neurosurgeon, Aiden Wilkins.

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Very well may become the youngest doctor in the world at only nine years old.

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Aiden attends classes three days a week at Earth Sinus College in Pennsylvania,

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where he's studying anatomy and chemistry.

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What's wrong with his child?

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At the age of six, he tested out of his high school's gifted test and is

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currently enrolled as a sophomore taking virtual high school coursework whilst

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he navigates his collegiate classes.

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He says he wants to be a pediatric neurosurgeon because he wants

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to help kids his own age.

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Oh my God.

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The little video of NB like on is from the Good News Network.

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You scroll down and NBC put their little video there, this little eloquent child.

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I was like my Shayna, I couldn't believe it.

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I was like, he's fucking nine and he's.

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He is literally like, they're, they're showing hi, like footage of

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him sitting in college classrooms.

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I was like, do you even know the Doogie Hauser reference?

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Who's that?

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Sorry, I'm getting, I'm all the millennials are about to be fair.

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Well,

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to be fair, it's a little before my time too.

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Oh, okay.

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So thank, so it was more of a Gen X thing.

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Neil Patrick Harris, who he is.

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Oh yeah.

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Yeah.

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So he was, that was his breakout role as like a little young, I mean, pro,

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maybe be an actual teen, but that was the whole thing was he was this child

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prodigy, like it was like a TV movie.

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A TV show.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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So go look up.

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Do Doogie.

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Houser md. 'cause this is little Doogie Houser neurosurgeon.

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Oh my God.

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I just, I can't, I don't, we might need to do an episode on like prodigies.

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I would love to because what the hete might the left turn into like, um.

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The whole past lives and all of that shit.

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Well, because

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I'm like, who is, is this, who is it really?

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This 9-year-old child?

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They're showing a, a picture of him as sitting in a high chair, like

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reading a fucking textbook or whatever.

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Yeah.

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I'm like, I don't, I don't believe in past lives until I hear about she.

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Shit

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like this.

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Me too.

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I'm like, what the hell?

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Oh my God.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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What's your good news?

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So mine is also the youngins.

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Okay.

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And you know, I couldn't resist a pun.

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So this organization is called Green Ages Oh LOL.

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So, uh, green Time over Screen Time.

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The Green Ages Group gets Utes to love the outdoors.

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So this is a nonprofit founded in 2007.

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Massachusetts that aims to instill in teens the value

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of environmental stewardship.

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Cute.

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Um, it is the biggest and longest running program that employs crews

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of local high schoolers who maintain, help maintain trails, and they are

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supervised by college age leaders.

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So what I discovered in like a deep dive here.

Speaker:

Was, they've been around for a long time, and then they finally

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got this AmeriCorps contract.

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Okay.

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So they started with their first batch of AmeriCorps volunteers.

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Mm-hmm.

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So it was like kind of half staff ha that like, you know, paid college kids.

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Yeah.

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And then half that were like grant funded through AmeriCorps.

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Like, so exciting.

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They got this three year contract.

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Wow.

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Boom.

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Guess who pulled the plug on AmeriCorps, uh, on this grant in, uh, April.

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So they lost all that grant funding that they had worked so hard to get.

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But they've worked really hard thanks to donations from individuals

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and companies and just the tireless commitment of the staff.

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Mm-hmm.

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They have maintained their programming.

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They even committed to paying the existing, uh, AmeriCorps volunteers,

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at least through this fall.

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Okay.

Speaker:

Um, and so yeah, it sucks that they had that detour, but they've clearly got a

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lot of longevity being around for so long.

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Yeah.

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Um, and I love how they talked about like.

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Obviously technology has isolated people so much, and especially that age group.

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Hmm.

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And so, um, interest has really increased in recent years because of that.

Speaker:

And it really teaches communication skills.

Speaker:

Like not only are they taking care of the environment and learning to

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really be a good steward of that.

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Um, so the, the founder and executive director says group

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work is the type of thing.

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Everybody rolls their eyes out in high school.

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Um, but teens in this work come together toward a common goal and

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he says that many parents whose kids get involved with green ages.

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Say like, well, my kid didn't really have an interest in going outside

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or know what to do outside, but now they can't get enough of it.

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Mm. So I love that and I'm just so glad that they're still gonna be forging ahead.

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Yeah.

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Doing the good work.

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Even with, you know, the Tangerine toddler pulling $400 million in grants

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to AmeriCorps, they are keeping it going.

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Wow.

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I mean, how needed, right.

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Yeah.

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Kids go outside touch grass.

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Yeah.

Speaker:

And like maybe learn to care for her.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

Can you know.

Speaker:

Brush the grass here, take care of our mother.

Speaker:

Pick up the

Speaker:

trash that people have put on her.

Speaker:

Sure.

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Yeah.

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Woo.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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That's all we have for this time.

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I know.

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Thanks for listening.

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We'll catch you at the next one.

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Bye.

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This has been another episode of But For Real, produced by Valerie Martin and

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Emerson writer, and edited by Sean Conlin,

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but For Real is a Gaia Center production.

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The Gaia Center offers individual couples and group therapy for clients

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across Tennessee and in person in our Nashville office, as well as coaching

Speaker:

for clients worldwide for show notes or to learn more about our work.

Speaker:

Visit Gaia center.co or find us on Instagram at the Gaia Center and at.

Speaker:

But for Real Pod

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but for Real is intended for education and entertainment and is not a

Speaker:

substitute for mental health treatment.

Speaker:

Also since we host this podcast primarily as humans rather than clinicians, we

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are not shy here about sharing our opinions on everything from snacks and

Speaker:

movies to politicians and social issues.

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Thanks so much for listening to this episode.

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See you next time.

Speaker:

Bestie.

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About the Podcast

But For Real
Welcome to But For Real: the podcast where all your swirling thoughts about mental health, pop culture, and how to human are blended into one delicious variety show, co-hosted by therapists Valerie Martin (resident elder millennial ✌️) and Emerson Ryder (resident Gen Z 🫶).

About your host

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Valerie Martin