Episode 23

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Published on:

23rd Jul 2025

Bougie, Broke, and on a Budget - The Psychology of Money (Part 1)

Today’s episode is allllll about MONEY HUNNY – how we are influenced to think about the construct of money, financial wellbeing, and balancing all of this in the modern landscape of capitalism and consumerism.

This episode covers:

  • 06:59 - Tea & Crumpets: Stretching in the pool + Courtney Carver
  • 11:27 - Step Into My Office: Navigating financial boundaries with friends 
  • 18:04 - The DSM: The Psychology of Money
  • 44:17 - Now That's What I Call...OKAAAAY!
  • 45:41 - Emerson Pick: "Seven Rings" by Ariana Grande
  • 48:07 - Valerie Pick: "Look At Me Now" by Karmin (CB Cover)
  • 48:55 - Fire Dumpster Phoenix: H-E-B supporting Texas flood relief efforts + a crow visiting his Danish “chosen family”

Resources + Stuff  Mentioned in This Episode:


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DISCLAIMER: But For Real Podcast is not a substitute for individualized mental health treatment or healthcare. This podcast is solely for entertainment and educational purposes. If you are in crisis, please utilize crisis support services, such as the Crisis Text Line (Text START to 741741 in the US) or the 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline: (Call 988 in the US), or visit www.findahelpline.com for international resources.

Transcript
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Welcome to, but for Real, a variety show podcast co-hosted by two therapists who

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also happened to be loud mouth feminist.

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I'm Valerie, your

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resident elder, millennial child free cat lady.

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And I'm Emerson, your resident, chronically online Gen Z brat.

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And on the show we'll serve up a new episode every other week that will take

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you on a wild ride through the cultural zeitgeist, mental health and beyond.

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You'll definitely laugh

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and TBH sometimes maybe cry a little because this is a silly and serious show.

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Buckle up my friends, and let's get into today's episode.

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Well, hello.

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Well, you, we all have fairy hair, everyone.

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Oh my

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God.

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And we all can't stop talking about it.

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Even it's probably both of our T and cookies.

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I'm like, yeah, I love it.

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Yeah.

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Even our video people probably can't see from this far away, but I mean, say Mya

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shit is in the, I like did these little buns and I was like, I feel so fun.

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And then I like caught a glimpse of the back of my head and I was like.

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Maybe the back of my head is my business and I need to be paying attention

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to her more because I always exist with like, the back of my head is

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not my fucking business, who cares.

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But today I was like, well, maybe it should be.

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My inner critic was like, girl, it

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should be you carry around a little mirror so that you can

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do like the double mirror look.

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It's instead the jump

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scare.

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Yeah.

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No, it's fun.

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There's um, the brand that does the tensiles mm-hmm.

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Um.

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At our Nashville Pride.

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Yes.

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They have little franchise locations kind of sprinkled throughout the

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country, I feel like, at least.

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Yes, regionally, but like I feel like it's pretty far spread.

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I think

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so too.

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Yeah,

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they're really fun.

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Finkle pots, fairy hair for sure.

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Go check them out.

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I like sweet.

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Next year, summer gathering.

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We're just gonna have to

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have finkle pots come out and thank God you said it.

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'cause I've been waiting for you to say it.

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I'm like, I've been subliminally just someone long just sending you messages.

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I'm like.

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Yes.

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Okay.

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Our little farting intro aside, I have an actual intro question.

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Okay.

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What is it that is pertaining to our topic today?

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Mm-hmm.

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I want, well, it's multiple questions.

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Mm-hmm.

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Because in therapy you're supposed to just ask one question,

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but I'll be non stack them.

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Yeah.

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I'll be asking many at a time.

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Um, what is one of your earliest memories of money that you have an allowance and

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were you taught to budget or did you just.

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Have to figure it out yourself.

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Okay.

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So I do recall having like a piggy bank.

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Sure.

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And to an event.

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Yeah.

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And, and I, where did I hear this recently?

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I'm sure on a podcast of some kind, but like some joke about this may,

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I'm not sure if this was still a thing in your era, especially

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with your international schooling.

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Sure.

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But in my era as an elder millennial, the Scholastic book fair was, oh my god.

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Like life changing.

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Yes.

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And it was like, you better save up that money because you know,

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I am gonna want as many books as possible from this book Fair.

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Sure.

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Right.

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Or just the tot that comes with it.

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The blow.

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Yeah.

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Stickers and shit.

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So like,

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that was one of my earliest memories was just like, uh, and then I, I,

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I was a catalog queen as a child.

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Okay.

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I was too.

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Yeah.

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Moxie girl, Delia's, like all the things.

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Mm-hmm.

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Um, I. Do you think I, yes, I had an allowance, but I don't even have

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any fucking memory of what it was.

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Sure.

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And um, and then.

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Uh, you know, my parents were so wonderful in so many ways and like I'm

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sure they tried at some point to tell me some about money, but it, if so,

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it went in one ear and out the other.

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Yes.

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And so I do wish I'd gotten a little bit more, but also like, you know,

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they were doing a lot in a lot of other ways and so, uh, yeah, some of that

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I've been trying to teach myself for the last 20 years, literally, quite

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literally.

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What about you?

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I was, when I posed this, I was like, what is my earliest menu of money?

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Yeah.

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And then I was kind of laughing 'cause I was like, I was running a tight ship.

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I was an only child for six and a half years before my little sister came along.

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Mm-hmm.

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So I was just like.

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The world revolves around me, mama, if I want it, you get it, honey.

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If I want it, I got it.

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And so I was spoiled.

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I was the el, I'm the eldest daughter.

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I was the first, um, I was the first girl grandchild on both sides.

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So I feel like it was kind of Moula baby.

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Yeah.

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For me.

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But I just, I remember just like having like paper money, like fake money,

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like a little being a little cashier.

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And I was just like.

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My imaginary friends, I was like, get through this fucking line quickly.

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And then my mom's like coming with her fake groceries and

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I'm like, I'm like chewing gum.

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I'm irritated with her.

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I'm like.

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You know, debit or credit, you know, just all of that.

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I'm like, gimme your coins.

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And so I feel like my really early memories of money was just play.

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And I don't even know when I started to actually just be cognizant of it.

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I'm just like, maybe the same.

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My mom would give me that fat catalog and I would be like, you're circle,

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hidden circle, circle, circle.

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And I remember like looking at the price, but I was just like, this isn't real.

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Like I was just like, it's toys.

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So I'm really just like.

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When was the shift?

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Do you know?

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Yeah, and honestly I cringe thinking back to those days because like I was

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spoiled and I don't even think it was because my parents, by my nature were the

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kind of parents who would spoil a child.

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I think I was just that bratty and like.

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I need this.

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I hate it.

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And if I don't get them to be so sad, the two copies

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of Titanic, I'll never forget that about you.

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Yes.

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So I like to think I've grown well.

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Sure.

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Um, and allowance kind of the same thing.

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I was like, I know at one point I had one, it was, it was tour chart style,

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but I was like, mom, fuck the rules.

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I can't deal with this.

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They were like, do this for money.

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I'm doing my best mom.

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And I was like, mom, literally.

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Kind of fuck you.

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I don't wanna do this.

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And so that didn't last long.

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And then it's kind of same with budgeting.

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Surely there

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was a conversation at some point, but I was just like, I'm

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in college, money is not real.

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What do you mean?

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Right.

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And especially like, I don't know if this was the case for you, but

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like in college, I was so fortunate and so grateful that like I was not

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responsible for most of my must have expenses like groceries or apartment.

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Mm-hmm.

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I think I started to take over some of those things at some point.

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But, uh, in college, but like for the most part, if I needed it mm-hmm.

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It was covered.

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Oh, same.

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And so then all my fucking money was ex was disposable income,

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everything that I got from my job.

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Yep.

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Which like, hello should have been real easy math for me to realize that come

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graduation when all the bills became mine.

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Guess what?

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All that income is not disposable anymore.

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Mm. But

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it was a

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bit of a hard transition.

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I'm like, I'm rolling up knocking on the door to the Mexican restaurant that I was

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getting drunk at four nights a week and being like, can I have some severance pay?

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Like I have bills to pay for.

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I'm like, I'm scared.

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Scared.

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Oh my God.

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Now it's time for our first segment, tea and Crumpets, where we tell you what

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we can't stop talking about this week.

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I'm just annoying and boring and I was like, what has been on my radar?

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And like kind of nothing which.

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I was like, maybe that's not a bad thing.

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Yeah.

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You know, and that's okay.

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Yeah.

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And I feel like I've just kind of been like home.

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Um, so the one thing I feel like I'm actually like, wait.

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Physical therapists and old people at the Y, they're onto something.

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I'm like, I have this newfound appreciation for the old bitches at the

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Y. I am like, you guys know something?

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Yes.

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About joints and mobility in the water?

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Lemme tell, tell you what, I'm in the water and I'm like, stretching.

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And I'm like.

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Okay.

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I like fucked my knee up by falling into a pool.

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So the pool hurt me and also now it's gonna kill me.

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This is, you know, a kind of thing about second chances and now we gotta

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give it a chance going to the abusive ex AKA, the pool honey, that cycle,

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we're in it real bad, real bad.

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So I've been spending a lot of time in the pool and it's just been hot as balls.

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So I'm like, me and the pool are so locked in right now.

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I'm doing my mobility routine in there and it's.

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It's actually really helpful.

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Really like I feel like I get out and I'm like, okay, this feels better.

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Yeah, this feels good.

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I'm like, oof a minor injury when you're in your.

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Mid.

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I'm gonna swim in my mid twenties.

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I don't know you guys.

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I turned 26 like two weeks ago and I'm like, everything's changed.

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She tried to roll up and say, well now as a person in my late twenties,

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I'm like, bet you literally just

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turned 26.

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No, I literally did like two fucking weeks ago.

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So the pool has been.

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She hurt me, but she's also been my saving grace at this time.

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Okay.

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So do some mobility, do some stretches, everyone.

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Yeah.

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Please stretch your body as an adult.

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It feels Oh my God.

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Feels you kind of need to, I'm learning.

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Yeah.

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I'm like, that is one of the areas where I look up to Chris, my husband.

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Mm-hmm.

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Because, and some of it's just by necessity 'cause he's tall and

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lanky and his joints honey are just gonna need a lot of help.

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Yep.

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Um, but he stretches probably 30 minutes a day.

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Oh my God.

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I'm just like, sure.

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Yeah.

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Like he, I wish I had to, he has to leave home by 6 45 in the morning.

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He's, he's still getting in that time.

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Okay.

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That's dedication.

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I know.

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Like I work out, so that's how I spend the time.

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Sure.

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But, um, but I really admire the stretching because it is so good for you.

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Yes.

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So, okay.

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What's your tea?

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My tea is, I am in my Courtney Carver era.

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Okay.

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So, I don't know if you know this queen.

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Mm-hmm.

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Um, her Instagram and blog is called Be More With Less.

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Okay.

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And she started blogging in like.

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2006 or something?

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Or two?

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Two.

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Somewhere late two thousands.

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She was diagnosed with MS in 2006, and it was kind of crazy because she was.

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Uh, working at the, for this publisher where her boss had Ms. Oh.

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And she like, didn't really know much about it, but she really

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like, admired and respected him.

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So, and she was like very active person and, you know, climbing

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mountains and doing all this shit.

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And so then she started training for the MS one 50, okay.

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Raising money for ms. And then she started having all these insane medical symptoms,

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which at first they like, is it stress?

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Is it this, is it this, millions of tests.

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And then sure enough.

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She has ms.

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Oh my God.

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Yeah.

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And so she of course has to like drop out of training for this race.

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Sure.

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Um, but yeah, it was, it's such a cool story.

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She shares, uh, a lot of it course throughout her blog, but her

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first book, so full simplicity.

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I'm finally reading now and it's so good.

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Um, but yeah, basically it took her on this like path of.

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Um, I have to simplify my life.

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Sure.

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I literally have to find out how to reduce stress as much as possible.

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And I, so it's like the simplicity is not the point.

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It's a means to an end.

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Sure.

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Which is like, how can I have as little stress as possible living

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in this world that we live in?

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So that meant getting rid of debt, getting rid of clutter, like sizing

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down and, and just, I mean, all of that is so appealing to me.

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And yet there's a part of me that pushes back so hard against it, right?

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Like, no, I wanna, I want to do all the things.

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So how do I do that while also simplifying and doing less?

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It's, it's tough.

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So I'm really kind of taking that in her new book, um, which is

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called Gentle Something, something.

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I forget the subtitle, but it is, if you have Spotify Premium, it is free.

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Okay.

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On auto, on the audio on Spotify.

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Nice.

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So I'm listening to that right now too.

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Um, I'm just loving her.

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I feel like I need that medicine right now.

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And it also connects, I feel like, with our theme for today.

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Yay.

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Yeah, I

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could check their stuff out.

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Yeah.

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Now it's time for step into my office where you get advice from your

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favorite professionally qualified, personally peculiar therapist.

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So this listener says, Hey, besties.

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I'm in my late twenties and I love my friend group.

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They're kind, fun, and the kind of people who send funny tiktoks and

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check in on your mental health.

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But I feel like I can't afford to keep up with them anymore.

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Every month it's a $70 group dinner, a multi-day bachelorette trip, a bougie

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birthday brunch, or a night out with everyone throwing at least a hundred

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dollars toward the bar tab as if we're not all still paying off student

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loans, have bills to pay, et cetera.

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I've tried suggesting lower cost stuff, but it either gets ignored or it's met

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with a, you deserve to treat yourself, which okay, maybe, but I also deserve to

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not panic when I look at my bank account.

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I don't wanna lose these friendships, but I'm so tired of feeling ashamed

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or left out when I say no help.

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Love my Venmo is crying and so am I. Ooh,

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relatable.

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Oh my God.

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Been there.

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I feel like, for sure.

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Okay.

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I'm already thinking so many things.

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Yes, one for sure.

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Been there and I think it's hard, especially like even just like

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the framing of like being in your twenties where it's like.

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The world has kind of gone bananas.

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And so it's like maybe we should just live while we're fucking young.

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And it's a little bit of like, I feel like I'm having a lot of struggles,

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not really with this anymore.

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Mm-hmm.

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But a little bit of the struggles where it's like crossing over into,

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okay, now you're starting to like, make a little bit of adult money

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and like that's kind of fun and.

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Also, I feel like lifestyle inflation really creeps up on

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people and like, especially now.

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Yeah.

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When there's just so, I mean, everything just costs astronomically

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more than it used to and there's so many new experiences.

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Mm-hmm.

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Um, and so I really feel for this person, I feel like it's really hard to wanna

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feel like you're still like living in your twenties and being with your friend group

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and having fun and making these memories.

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And when does it become really impractical?

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Giving you panic when you're having to look at your stuff like that.

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Right.

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And it can be, you know, all kinds of shit can come up if, if you

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were to be just like transparent.

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'cause it sounds like in this listener's case, like.

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You know, these are, these are real friends.

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Sure.

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Right.

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These are not just like party friends.

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Yeah.

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And, but still, nonetheless, even if they're real friends, it can be

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really vulnerable to say like, mm-hmm.

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I can't afford that.

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Right.

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And yet can we fucking normalize that?

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Yes.

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Like, I just wish there could be more, and I mean, I've gotten better over the

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years and having those conversations and there are times where it has been

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worth it to me to swipe that credit card.

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And, and there's times where honestly, I regret like.

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A wedding I didn't go to in my mid twenties when like,

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'cause the money wasn't there.

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But I, I could have swept the card and I honestly wish that I had,

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but that's like a rare occasion.

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Yeah.

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Whereas all of the death by a thousand paper cuts is more

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all of the little things.

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Mm-hmm.

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That I was just like, oh, it's happening.

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I'll do it.

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And I should have said, actually, I can't afford that.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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To myself and maybe to my friend.

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Right.

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Sure.

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So I hope that we can normalize that because I think if they're not

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hearing you or they're being like, oh, just treat yourself like, yeah.

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Because here's the thing, we never know, like, and we can't

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assume comparison is a bitch.

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It's rarely helpful.

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Mm-hmm.

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But the reality is we're going to do that.

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Especially when we're looking at like, well wait, how can all

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of them seem to afford this?

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And I can't.

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Yes.

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Sometimes yes, they have a different financial scenario.

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Now, maybe they also started on third base.

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Maybe they.

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Had college or whatever paid for, maybe they got an inheritance

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from a grandparent, whatever.

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Like that's true.

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There's so many things that can be variable.

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Maybe their parents, you know, paid for their, um, house or whatever, right?

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Sure.

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Their car.

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Um, and so there's differences there, but also in both salary and.

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And you don't know how many people appear to afford things that they

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actually can't, which is a lot of people, including I've been there.

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Right, sure.

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And I feel like that's probably a really big thing right now.

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Like we, I mean, every little other part of our episodes are talking about just

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like perception and social media, and.

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What we blast out there to make you think that everyone's living Yep.

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A certain kind of life when like, we aren't in their debit card and we're

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not in that credit card statement, girl.

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Yeah.

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We don't know.

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You know, like, and we're not, and so I think, you know, obviously for you

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listener, like there's this awareness where I think these people really care

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about me and I really care about them.

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And if there's, if there's leaning in a little bit more with that, like.

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Dude, I just can't, or I'm seeing all this stuff, you know, bachelorette

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trip, that's maybe kind of more of like an important milestone thing, right?

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Versus going out and blowing a ton on the bar tab at the bar.

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Right.

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However often we're doing that.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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So maybe it's like, I really wanna prioritize the important birthdays and

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the milestone things, and the other stuff I might just have to take a seat

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out for and like, I'm sure that sucks.

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Like FOMO sucks, right?

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You know.

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Um, and there's just, I don't know, like there's not a lot of times where you

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can be uber financially irresponsible.

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Yeah.

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Especially in today's times, I feel.

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Right.

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Right.

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And the last thing I'll, I'll say on it too is like, 'cause I am,

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I'm, uh, working on getting myself back on more of a budget mm-hmm.

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And following the spending plan rather than like creating it

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and then being like whatever.

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Um.

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And

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yeah, the fun is creating it, not adherence to it.

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God, seriously.

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And we're gonna talk a little bit more about that in part two of all this.

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But I will say that like one of the, the parts of that is like, um, I went on,

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on a sort of a group dinner recently to a place where I would say probably the

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average tab of most people are getting like dinner, drinks, multiple plates.

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Is probably per person closer to like 80 to a hundred dollars.

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Sure.

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I spent 30 and you know, you gotta be careful because some of these

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places are assholes about like tab splitting and all of that.

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Yeah.

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So figure out your plan for that.

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Um, but, you know, 30 plus tax and tip, I was able to get out of there for.

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40 bucks as opposed to a hundred.

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And that's 'cause I was very intentional about like, it's

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important for me to be there.

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Mm-hmm.

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I'm looking at the menu ahead of time.

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I'm ordering the cheapest NA beer, I'm ordering the cheapest Andre and I still

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got to have a really good experience.

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Sure.

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Yeah.

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Without feeling like you're blowing or whatever.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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Take care.

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Listener budget.

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And it's okay to just say the thing.

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Please start normalizing this shit.

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Yeah.

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And now it's time for the DSM.

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In our DSM, all varieties of dysfunction, spiraling, and meltdowns are welcome.

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In this segment, we break down complicated concepts and common misconceptions

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about mental health, wellbeing, and tell you what we really think.

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Of course, the blurb.

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Our episode today is all about money, honey.

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Mm-hmm.

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So how we're influenced to think about the construct of money, financial wellbeing?

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And then of course, balancing all of this in the modern landscape

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of consumerism and capitalism.

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Whew.

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I'm scared.

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The two C words we're all screaming about.

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Oh my God.

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So I feel like for this episode, of course, in my mind I was like, yeah,

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there's psychology behind Money.

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But then I was like, there's psychology behind Money for real there.

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Some should that people have researched and Oh, yes.

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So one of the things I wanted to kick off with and I didn't, I had no idea what this

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was until I started researching for this episode and I thought was really cool.

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So Dr. Brad Klons, he's the shit, he's kind of the shit in like

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the financial psychology world.

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So he created alongside some other, you know, brilliant researchers, the

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money script inventory or the Clon MSI.

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So this is an inventory and it kind of specifically boils down to four scripts.

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So script schemas or whatever.

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Mm-hmm.

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The things, the things that influence how we think about individuals carry beliefs

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about money, and so kind of framed it that these are typically developed in

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childhood, are intergenerationally passed down, are typically unconscious and a

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factor that drives most of someone's financial decisions in adulthood.

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The link will be in the show notes for the paper.

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It's so interesting to see how they break down by like race, demographic,

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different things like that.

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And so the four scripts that they pulled from first is money avoidance,

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so this is the kind of money is bad, or I do not deserve money.

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So this is someone that avoids spending money on necessary purchases, um, again,

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really necessary purchases, like stuff they need, like does yeah, does not meet

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their needs, does not meet their needs.

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Um, and is really worried about credit card usage.

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Um, just like very fixated and nervous about the money that they have.

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Money, worship is kind of more money will solve all my life's problems.

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Which wait, it, it won't.

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I know I'm scared.

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Right?

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I feel like it kind of every, every cultural aspect, I don't

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know young people, anyone.

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I feel like I have my own moments of money worship.

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Yeah.

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I think this is like a pretty normal one.

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Um, but this is kind of, if it's real serious.

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Script in your mind, one can never have enough money, and this script

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may often be associated with hoarding, gambling, and compulsive overspending,

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which is like an interesting kind of deviation, um, money status.

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Of course, money is status.

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So really concerned with the association of self-worth and net.

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Um, and really prioritizing those outward displays of wealth and materialism.

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Shout out social media.

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I feel like social media is all money status nowadays.

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Yes.

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And then money vigilance.

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So this is excessive weariness about money or financial dangers,

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perceived or real threats.

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Um, also thought was interesting, hiding how much money you have.

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Mm-hmm.

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Um, not discussing money with spouse or family members.

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Frugality and saving is good, but kind of this excessive overdoing

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leads to a ton of anxiety and inability to enjoy the security and

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accessibility that money brings.

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Um, so even just all of those four scripts.

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And I think none of them are hard and fast.

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I feel like everyone can kind of pick, maybe I'm kind of a bit of both.

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Mm-hmm.

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Or maybe I actually feel at different points of my life.

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In my twenties I was this and my thirties, I was that.

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So it really just depends and again, kind of bleeds into those

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like family of origin dynamics or like the emotional money legacies.

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So.

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Uh, in the cultural kind of things, or just like the real parts of

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like hide packages from dad.

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You know, like there's like literal welcome mats that are like, sh

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hide the packages from my husband.

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You know, and just like the, in a way that it's a joke,

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but then in a way that's wine.

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Why mommy wine?

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Like, why are we joking about this?

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I know.

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And like a little kid is wearing like, my mom basically

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fucking hates me and is drunk.

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I'm like, I'm scared.

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Like so very much that like hide the packages or, um, milestone money I

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always like to talk about with folks.

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So wedding, graduation, any kind of money that comes in as a gift or inheritance

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money, sometimes that's a gift, uh, but seemingly isn't a gift and comes

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with a ton of conditions I feel like.

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Definitely.

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Um, weddings, people talk about that a lot where.

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You know, who can be pleased with what and what the expectations are.

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And inheritance money too of like, oh my God, what

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do, how, how much peace do I need to keep to stay in this person's will?

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Yes.

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Kind of tea.

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Um, witnessing parents or caregivers or people you know, close in your

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life going through financial strain or yourself going through financial strain.

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Uh, money is a high contributing factor for a lot of conflict and

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long-term relationships and divorce.

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Um, and just in general, like if money was something talked about.

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In any kind of capacity.

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When you were growing up, did you witness your caregivers

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incessantly, stressed about money?

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Did you witness your caregivers in a lot of money, worship and status, and how did

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that make you feel when you were younger of, oh, I need to be pushed to pursue

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this career in order to make my parents happy that I make a lot of money or.

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Can I make a lot of money to now provide for my family?

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Because we always struggled in a way.

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So there's just so mm-hmm.

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It's deep.

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Yeah.

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It's deep.

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So deep.

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Oh my God.

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Sidebar, I am watching White Lotus Season three.

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Mm. Have you watched it?

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No.

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Okay.

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Well, you know, the whole premise of White Lotus is like these very luxury resort

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vacation destinations, and so you're getting this really cool view of class.

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Through the lens of the vacationers, the guests, and also the staff.

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Oh, okay.

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Right.

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Um, and sometimes you're getting a little bit of different cultural elements based

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on like this season three's in Thailand.

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Sure.

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Um, but yeah, there's Parker Poseys character in season three.

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She is a fucking hoot 'cause she's playing this like Southern bell and so,

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or she just has this refrain of like.

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Are they decent people?

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Well, I think they're decent.

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And I'm like, oh my God.

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So coded for are they white and wealthy?

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Right.

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Class, class, class, class, class and race.

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Um, so yeah, that was just on my mind hearing all of those,

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like status and worship things.

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Oh yeah.

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Um, it's so, it's a, it's a pretty compelling, um, exploration

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of like the class stuff.

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Sure.

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Really interesting.

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Okay, so one thing we wanted to touch on is the whole like scarcity.

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An abundance mindset.

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Mm-hmm.

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Right.

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Um, vocal after that, oh my God, I love vocal fry.

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You know, I'll, I'll get there when we talk about our abundance mindset for sure.

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So scarcity mindset.

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Um, most of us kind of know what this is, but you know, generally

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feeling like there's never enough.

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Whether it is, uh, time scarcity, money scarcity, um, I say were the

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biggest places that those show up.

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Um, but could also be like relationships, et cetera.

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Mm-hmm.

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Um, and you know, this can show up even when it's more psychological than it is.

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Factual.

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So certainly we know there are real issues with, um, income inequality.

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Oh yeah.

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Poverty, you know, people, the minimum wage being way too fucking low, not having

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a living wage, all of that like scares.

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Yeah.

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You can budget your

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way out of being fucking poor.

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Exactly.

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So scarcity is real.

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Um, and also there is perceived scarcity and ways that we can get hooked in our

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brain where it's like no matter how much is there, if I am panicking about

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it, it's probably not really helping.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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So, um, even situations like someone you know, gets a promotion, someone,

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you know, gets an inheritance money or, um, a brand deal or whatever, and

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it can feel like you're somehow losing something because they're gaining.

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And so people will sometimes say, especially in the whole abundance

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world of like, it's not a pie.

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Like, it's not like, sure.

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You know, and I'm like, well, but money kind of on a soc

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sociological level mm-hmm.

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Kind of is a pie.

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Like there's so much.

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But you know, when we get really at an individual level hooked into thinking

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like that, whether we're conscious of it or not, it can keep us kind of

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in this unhelpful, scarcity place.

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And then when we're in that place, we can often feel this sort of deprivation,

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which then can cause us to rebel.

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Like just like a diet, right?

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Sure.

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Where we're like, fuck that.

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Like, I don't wanna be on a diet, I'm gonna, that makes

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me want to eat everything.

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Yep.

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We try to put ourselves on a quote unquote budget and then we rebel.

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Um, and we're like, no, that feels too restrictive.

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I can't be on a budget.

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Right.

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Which is why I love words like money map and conscious spending

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plan because it doesn't need to be that energy of deprivation.

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Right?

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Yes.

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It is intentionality, but we are, you know, when we are budgeting, if we get

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too caught up in scarcity mindset, then we are really focused on the deficits,

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the lack, as opposed to, wow, it's pretty fucking cool that I can pay $50 a month or

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whatever it is and have my lights turn on.

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Like we take a lot of shit for granted.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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Especially in industrialized countries where it's like you're

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middle class, you are more fortunate than the vast majority of the world.

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Right?

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Oh my god.

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Sure.

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So there are also things relate to scarcity, like underearning and that's

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like a really big, it's an interesting topic because this is not to say

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that like, oh, you know, if you're, if you're not making a lot of money,

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there's something wrong with you.

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But there are some people who sort of like have a deep internalized

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pattern where it is hard for them to.

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Um, allow themselves to earn more money.

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Mm-hmm.

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So, for instance, the person who spent $300,000 on a law degree and then, you

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know, takes every pro bono client that comes their way, reduces their rate for

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everyone that's big in our field too.

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Sure.

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Um, and so it's, you know, sometimes there, there are things where

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Underearning, uh, and there's entire books about it, overcoming

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Underearning by Barbara Stanley.

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Um, there's of course, real intergenerational poverty that

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can, you know, create that.

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Like you were saying before, that's one of the scripts where, uh, or the

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scripts can all be intergenerational.

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But if you come from generations of poverty and scarcity, it's not that

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it's impossible to climb out of, it's just that, you know, you're starting

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from a lower point and that's going to often have an impact on your

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mindset in addition to what's actually happening in your financial world.

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Um, okay, so then we have abundance mindset, which we love.

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Oh my God.

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Um, I, I will not name this money coach, and I will say

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that I bought her $2,000 course.

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Why?

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Because I was in a period where I thought maybe what will fix my money issues?

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Is just being in a better abundance mindset.

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Mm. And this person, like, she talks about like, money fucking loves you.

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And, and I'm like, girl, money does not, money doesn't, money doesn't give a shit.

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Money doesn't,

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I'm sorry, but money lives in

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a

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printer.

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Yes.

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So it's hard because like sure, we can look at how, if you are constantly in

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scarcity mindset, is there, are there ways where that might be holding you back?

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Sure, sure.

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But is shifting into abundance mindset going to fix your money problems?

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No.

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No.

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It will maybe fix some of them, but probably the minority of them.

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Yes.

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So, um, you know, yeah, generally being in an abundance mindset, not just with.

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Dollars mm-hmm.

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Is helpful.

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Right?

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Because it's about noticing what you have.

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Yeah.

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And being grateful for what you have.

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Gratitude.

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Yes.

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Um, and that's like the abundance that's available to all of us.

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Um, I, you know, I talk about this with my best friend Liz, a lot, where

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we're just like walking through the woods together and we're like, when I

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think of abundance, I think of this.

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Yes.

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I think of the woods.

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I think of the wild flowers, I think of.

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The, the wealth of laughing with friends.

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Mm-hmm.

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Right.

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Like that is, is an abundance.

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And that's not to say that like to gaslight yourself of like, well,

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if you have those things, you have nothing to complain about.

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Right.

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Sure.

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It's just recognizing that, you know, allowing yourself to be in a place

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of, you know, gratitude can seem like such a buzzword, but it's truly.

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It will have a positive influence on your life.

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Yes.

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Is it going to fix your overspending issues?

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No.

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No.

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So you're still going to have to do the work on the tactical stuff.

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Mm-hmm.

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But you know, yeah.

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Working on your mindset is helpful, but it's just very frustrating.

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How that whole world of manifestation and abundance mindset has it, I mean,

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it's massive in the online world, especially within when you get into

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business coaching and the business coaches being like, you know, if you

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believe in your prosperity, like then you'll say yes to this, you know, a

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hundred k coaching package with me.

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Um, so, uh, yeah, I mean it's, and it's the pyramid, right?

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Sure.

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So, um, I have always loved this quote, um.

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On manifestation.

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Maybe she's born with it.

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Maybe it's white privilege, right?

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Yes.

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Oh God

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indeed.

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Yeah.

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Mm. Yeah.

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I feel like every time there's like a certain time when my algorithm hits where

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it's like, stop, this video is for you.

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And I'm like, no, it's not.

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And I have to tell myself out loud, out loud.

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It's not for me.

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Keep going because there is gonna be some queen that's like, I put this tarot card.

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And it's telling me you're gonna be rich Uhhuh.

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And I'm like, lady, I'm scared of you.

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Um, so yeah, the impacts of the algorithm and just, I don't know, kind of, we could

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not talk about this in part one without talking of course, about capitalism.

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Mm-hmm.

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And how all of this impacts the self-worth pieces.

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So I pulled, um, this blog and it'll be in the show notes from

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Medium, from Bailey, Aaron Gurley.

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I hope that's how you say your name.

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It's spelled kind of be, um.

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Just really focusing again on that financial worth, being

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conflated with personal worth.

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Mm-hmm.

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And so I found it really interesting.

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She was talking about, um, living in London and introducing

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oneself by your name.

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And kind of the next immediate question was, uh, what's your postal code?

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Uh, like what's your zip code?

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Whoa.

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Uh, to see what neighborhood you live in.

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Yikes.

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And I really sat with that and I was like.

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Oh, I'd never thought of that before when I'm like, Hey, I'm Emerson,

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and you know, oh, like what's, what part of town do you live in?

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I never would've thought asking someone in that way.

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To me, this is my y'all.

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This is my neurodivergent self, where I'm like, this is the script.

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This is the next thing.

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You ask someone, you're like meeting someone new, not to be

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like judgy about where they live.

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Like class.

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Like, I need know which class you're in.

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I was like, what the fuck?

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So she talked about that or how she, um, she kind of messed with, uh, introducing

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herself by a specific job title.

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And she talked about, just briefly of when she talked about, uh, like

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working as a charity employee.

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People were like, oh, okay.

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And then as she's introducing herself as like a chief executive director,

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everyone's like, oh, and like leaning in.

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Yeah.

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So it just is like that real life.

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Part where like we're not crazy.

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Like this shit for real does happen and it is embedded in Western culture for sure.

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And other cultures for sure.

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Um, but just like those snap judgements of status.

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So, and I really liked, again how she talked about, um, she sustained an injury

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and was noticing how her internal voice was shifting very judgmentally and I

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think probably anyone can relate to this.

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In some kind of way, but was shifting from I'm, I'm like a leader and I am

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like, uh, you know, a contributing member of society and it just turned into,

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I'm just like this unproductive person, just like on the unemployment line.

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Mm-hmm.

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Just like from here to here and just so much judgment.

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And I think probably anyone that's dealing with money challenges or.

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Career stuff, how quickly the shifts happen because we have real

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world experiences that evidence some of those things, right.

Speaker:

And it's really hard to sit with that stuff.

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Um, so that's one thing I was kind of thinking about with kind

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of the personal worth, and then just in general, hustle culture.

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The grind, toxic productivity.

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We feel like we should be monetizing every little hobbit

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and fart and hobby that we have.

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I'm just like every hobby,

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you know, I'm like, okay, we're sitting here and someone's having a fart and

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they're like, I shouldn't strain this.

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Make money off of it.

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I'm like, okay, whatever happened to just like be exist.

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Yeah.

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Uh, crafting, creating literally for pleasure is, it's now lazy or not the

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grind or not putting yourself ahead.

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I feel like that's a big thing.

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Yeah.

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I'm like, ahead of what,

Speaker:

and every creator of any kind, every self-employed person, every

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entrepreneur is constantly getting this message, charge what you're

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worth, charge what you're worth.

Speaker:

So it's like, well, how are we not supposed to conflate our worth with

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like the number in our account?

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Yeah, right.

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It's naughty.

Speaker:

I get that message, like I get it comes from a place of like, don't.

Speaker:

You know, undercut yourself and, and your, your expertise and all of that, but like,

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charge what you're worth is so icky to me

Speaker:

it's, ugh, it's just not enlightening.

Speaker:

Um, and then of course, then just like the burnout from this side hustle

Speaker:

stacking or over monetization, you know, what starts as an opportunity for more

Speaker:

financial freedom for most individuals.

Speaker:

Ends up pouring more money out into something to try to get one of these

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MLM type businesses started switching.

Speaker:

Are we gonna have to

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do it in an episode on MLMs?

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And We'll,

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and we'll stay tuned for that.

Speaker:

Um, but yeah, it's, it all, you know, comes from this empowering place at first,

Speaker:

and then I think it takes these really difficult and sinister twists mm-hmm.

Speaker:

That ends up really serving not a lot of people most of the time.

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And then, you know, we're, we're therapists, so we're of course also

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gonna look at the angle we are Yeah.

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Of financial trauma.

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Yes.

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Right.

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And oh my gosh, like, God, I'm just thinking of, um, someone who's, who

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went through a huge trauma last year who was defrauded out of $8 million.

Speaker:

Um, we know someone who experienced a financial trauma of losing all of their

Speaker:

retirement in, uh, savings mm-hmm.

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To Bitcoin fraud.

Speaker:

So.

Speaker:

These things are happening to people all the time.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

Obviously, um, things with inheritances can bring up really ugly, ugly sides

Speaker:

of family dynamics and systems ugly.

Speaker:

That can be traumatic as well.

Speaker:

So, um, there's all kinds of, of financial trauma experiences, financial

Speaker:

infidelity, where there's just been a lot of hiding and lying and, and then

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all of a sudden, like, guess what?

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We're have to file bankruptcy.

Speaker:

Mm-hmm.

Speaker:

Um, so it's just really, um.

Speaker:

It is a, a whole category of trauma, of course, going up with financial

Speaker:

insecurity, which like anything can lead to sort of like either extreme right?

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That can lead someone to like, now I need to make all the money

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and either hoard it or spend it all because I never got to spend.

Speaker:

So it just, it can go in different directions.

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Yeah.

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When you grew up with, with that kind of scarcity, real scarcity, um, you

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know, obviously there are things of bankruptcy and, and you know, it's.

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Bankruptcy, uh, is a complicated thing because, um, it's loaded.

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It is never going to be easy, but it can come with a lot of shame.

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It can come with a, a lot of like, you know, feeling like you have to hide it.

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I mean, people get suicidal around, yes.

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Around, um, money issues and money trauma.

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Um, of course there's times where your income really takes a hit because of

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some life throws you a curve ball, you're injured or sick or whatever.

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Um, financial abuse and control, whether that's from a spouse, um, from

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a, a parent, even as an adult child.

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I'm sorry, Brittany.

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My God.

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Right.

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Um, witnessing or experiencing job loss yourself or from a caregiver, having

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a caregiver that prioritized work over family and quality time, you know,

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and that's so tough with the holism.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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And just that message, especially for men and part of toxic masculinity.

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And, and I'm not saying that like every scenario where, you know,

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it's like say a family decides, hey, you're gonna stay home with the kids.

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And I'm gonna go and like, make sure that we're financially taken care of.

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I'm not saying that is goes poorly every time.

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No, but it can, right?

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Yes.

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Um, if, if it feels like then that person is just absent and that is their only

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way of providing, then there's gonna be a different type of scarcity in that family.

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Right.

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Um, and then the trauma responses that we might have, of course,

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hypervigilance around money spending.

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Um, there could be real like fight, flight, freeze responses

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that show up around money.

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Um, and then again, the hoarding, the impulse buying, the neglecting to spend

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on even basic needs that can happen.

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And that's sometimes even if the money is there, right?

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Like, um, Ramit sat and his podcast, um, has, has talked with so many

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individuals and couples who.

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Uh, often, you know, yes, sometimes they are maybe not

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earning enough or they're in debt.

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But other times it's like my help, my spouse, you know, makes $300,000 a year

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and will not let us go on a vacation.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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So it's um, those are often trauma responses in some capacity.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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Some practical tips of course.

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'cause we always leave with tidbits for just moving towards financial wellbeing

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and categorizing it in that way.

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I think it's really important to start redefining wealth.

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For you, what does it mean?

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Is it the security?

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Is it feeling autonomous with your bank account?

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Is it a values aligned kind of decision for you?

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Is it a mixture of all of the above?

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Um, what does it mean for you to have wealth and know that your definition of

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that is always just gonna be different than other people's, and that's okay.

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Mm-hmm.

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Um, really kind of titrating safety into money conversations.

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If you're talking with your partner or friends or family, especially self

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getting grounded before doing your monthly budget or you know, just, just

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feeling like you're doing a little bit of soft startup within yourself

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before engaging in conversations about finances, especially if it's a sore spot.

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And even if it's not, it can just feel.

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Secre, like have secrecy or shame.

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I really am trying to have a lot more like positive conversations and

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safety around talking about money with friends, coworkers, whoever, because

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there's just so much inherent shame I think when it comes to finances.

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Um, again, kind of that values clarification for building your budget.

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Uh, my best friend, Roxanne, it was so helpful when her and I were discussing

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budgeting not long ago, and she was like.

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What, what's like, it's okay to like give yourself the budget for fun money.

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Yeah.

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And what is that?

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Yeah.

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What do you wanna spend your money on?

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Yeah.

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'cause I was in a similar situation to our step into my office submission where I was

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like, dude, I feel like I'm blowing money on shit that I don't give a fuck about.

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Yeah.

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And now I'm resentful.

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And she was like.

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Stop.

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What is it that you actually care about?

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Yeah.

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And I was like, oh, you're right.

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Uhhuh.

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I should think about that.

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Uh, values aligned spending.

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Values spending.

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Yes.

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So, you know, continued act exercises in that kind of values realm.

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So explore your, you know, in a matrix style, what's your towards, in a

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way, moves when it comes to exploring finances or when you're spending stuff,

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and then of course self-compassion.

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Mm-hmm.

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Please know that it's like always not a one size fits all.

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Yeah.

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And giving yourself a little bit of grace, especially when you're trying to.

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Forge a new budget or make new decisions, it can be hard.

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Um, one thing I've been enjoying is like a quick body scan check-in.

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Mm-hmm.

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Really simple.

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Before, um, I'm, I tend to freeze or fawn in a, in a lot of financial

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situations and I mean, in's kind of dumb in air quotes, but even just like.

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Shopping in, in like frivolous settings, I'm prone to just being like, ah, okay.

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And yeah.

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Just handing the card over.

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Right.

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'cause I just get, I get really nervous.

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Yeah.

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Um, and so it's been a really good exercise for me personally.

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Mm-hmm.

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But take a beat and just be like, Emerson, just think about it for a sec.

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Yeah.

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It's okay.

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I don't immediately have to.

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Launch into something.

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So doing a body scan or 24 hour rule, dude.

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Mm-hmm.

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We talked about this when we were talking about wishlists

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and shopping and consumerism.

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But it's okay to pause and sit on stuff

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mm-hmm.

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For a day or more, or you know, in the realm of overspending.

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And it's okay if you find yourself underspending to sit on that a little

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bit instead of just turning it inward and avoiding it and going from there.

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Yep.

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And so, yeah, just taking pause is good.

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And of course we covered, oh my God.

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We're barely scratching the surface on this topic.

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So we're definitely gonna do a part two of this little topic of this series,

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and we're gonna be talking about.

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Spending debt and saving and for that mythical place called retirement.

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What is

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she?

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Who is she?

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But for real, of course, money is a construct.

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Yes.

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But it's also really a necessary skillset that everyone comes from widely different

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backgrounds, exposure, life experiences.

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It is never too late to learn these skills.

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Mm-hmm.

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To protect your financial wellbeing.

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Start making changes in sustainable ways that honor your needs and

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still leave some room for one.

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Hallelu.

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Mm-hmm.

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And now our musical segment.

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Now that's what I call rk, where Emerson and I each share a song with

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each other each week as representatives of our respective generations.

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We tell you a little bit about the song or artist and then.

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We press pause, we share the song with each other, and then we come back for our

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live reaction and we're capturing it all

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on a Spotify playlist.

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Linked in the show notes for you.

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I, of course had to put seven rings by Ariana Grande.

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I don't know if you've heard this.

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I feel like this was pretty big.

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You might have heard it.

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Yeah.

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So this is from her fifth Studio album.

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Thank you.

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Next released in 2019.

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She began working on this album amidst a ton of interpersonal struggles.

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Uh, specifically the death, the death of her ex-partner and rap star Mac

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Miller, um, and short-lived quote, manic pixie relationship with Pete Davidson.

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I didn't know

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she was one of the Pete Davidson girls, honey.

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Oh my gosh.

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Oh,

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do I have.

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Story for you.

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So this album is just pure college nostalgia for me.

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Mm-hmm.

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This is like my pre COVID.

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I'm going out, I'm getting drunk and crying and all this crazy shit.

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Um, exploring my own anxious attachment in relationships, hyping

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the girls up for the pre-game.

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It just went fucking platinum in my 2004 Volkswagen Beetle.

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Honey, we were locked in, so I'm excited for you to get a little bit.

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Of a different taste of Ariana Grande.

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Amazing.

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Wow.

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I know.

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I mean, I feel like I, I'm sure I've heard that.

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Sure.

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But like the video, the opulence, you have to see the video, the lyrics.

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I was, and you know, just that I see it.

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I like it, I want it.

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I got it.

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I'm like, I fear that as my twenties and it was as something I'm proud of.

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Right.

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Um,

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I feel like that Cliff, I probably had like tattooed internally in my forehead

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and I was like, this is my mantra, Uhhuh, this is, meanwhile I'm like, I. Am 1920.

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I don't have any money.

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It's like what?

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Its the math.

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Ain't math honey.

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You like my hair?

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Gee, thinks just, just bought it.

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Okay.

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God.

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What is your song?

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Okay.

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Similar vibe.

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Okay.

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But this is a crisp brown cover.

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Ooh, by, at the time it was, uh, pop Duo named Carmen with a k.

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Um, I have not followed Carmen.

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You know, I haven't listened to new music since.

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This came out in 2011.

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Um, but she now goes by Queen Herbie.

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Okay.

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Also, why do people insist on spelling weird words in a weird way?

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Because she spells Queen with a V instead of a W. Oh, interesting.

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Um, wait, B-A-U-A-V instead of a q Colleen.

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And so I don't know, but, uh, Amy Newnan is her real name or her government name.

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Uh, this video that came out in 2011, this is early YouTube viral,

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oh shit, over 114 million views.

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Uh, when this came out, I was just like, get.

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I was like, I love this.

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It was so good.

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I never got good enough to, you'll see it is fucking amazing.

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Mm-hmm.

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She went on Ellen, this was back when your shit went viral.

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Oh yeah.

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You're going on Ellen.

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You're farting, you're on Ellen.

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So, but interestingly enough, this Queen, Herbie, um, Carmen, she

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kind of, she did get a record deal.

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Mm-hmm.

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They played the pop game.

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She basically followed the rules.

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I saw this on a little clip on her Instagram of this like interview she

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did with some manifestation podcast.

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And then she was like, I didn't want any of that.

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I wanted to be real as an artist.

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I got into witchcraft.

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I got into manifestation, and look at me now.

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Which the irony is, look this on, look at me now.

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But really, she's like, she feels like she built her success as an

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independent artist saying, fuck you to the expectations of the industry.

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By manifesting it.

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And I'm like, oh girl, I don't know, but you're, you're very talented.

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There's that too.

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So we'll give her a whirl,

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y'all.

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This little white girl just went off, stepped on our necks as she should.

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Oh my God.

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That was, oh my God.

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Chris Brown, Lil Wayne, Buster Rhymes.

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Watch the fuck out.

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I mean, she just did the roll of three.

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What?

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No, that's a power play.

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Oh, I noticed that.

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Yeah, we didn't plug in our external camera today and we

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almost just got in trouble for it.

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Hey, but wow.

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Amazing.

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Right?

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She really was spinning.

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Okay, queen, definitely.

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Go catch that video if you have not.

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I'm think it might be on our Spotify.

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It's so

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2011. I'm so surprised I didn't.

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That I wasn't just like, rewind, rewind.

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You know, like, oh, that era.

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YouTube is so nostalgic.

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Yay.

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Okay.

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And now for our last segment of the show, welcome to Fire Dumpster Phoenix.

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It is rough out there y'all.

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And we need all the hope we can get.

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It's time to go dumpster diving for some positive news and from the

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leftover having meal ashes together.

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So what's your news this week be?

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Uh, well, you know, it's like the good news combined with horrible news.

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Well, yes.

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Um, so the floods in Texas.

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Oh.

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Which were tragic.

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Right.

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Um, and then there's this beautiful part and this silly part of, um,

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any Texans know and love HEB.

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Have you heard of HEB?

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Mm-hmm.

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Oh my God.

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It, we are fiercely loyal to our HEV.

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It is a Texan grocery chain.

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Um, I think there might be like a couple, maybe across the border, but

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they are primarily just in Texas.

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Okay.

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And not even really much in North Texas.

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But they've been around for a long time.

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My dad used to be a store manager for HEB.

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Yeah.

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And so for the most part, they're like a really good company.

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I mean, were they perfect?

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No.

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Sure.

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Um, but his checks were signed by Herbert E, but, uh, because it is the,

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but family, BUTT Herbert E, but, but HEB is just, I mean, it's magical.

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All of their like, store brand stuff is so good.

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Their prices are so good.

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It's like mostly I think a pretty legit company as far as capitalism goes.

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Sure.

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So anyway, the, but family, HEB and the HE but Foundation, um, donated $5

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million for the flood recovery efforts.

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Additionally, and I pulled some of this from their press release.

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Um, they also committed gifts to multiple nonprofits.

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American Red Cross, Texas Search and Rescue, salvation Army

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distributed a bunch of gift cards throughout impacted communities

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to school districts, nonprofits.

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Um, they deployed their mobile kitchen, um, distributed some

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different supplies and provisions.

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Um, they call their employees partners, which is like so cute

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because it's like such a text line.

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Hey, partner.

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Hey

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partners.

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Yeah.

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So their partners from across the company are also serving

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other hard hit communities.

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Um, partners are providing meals, gift cards, food, water, and of

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course for impacted partners.

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They are offering, you know, counseling, financial assistance.

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Um.

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So, yeah, I mean, there have been some photos going viral of just

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all of the HEV disaster relief trucks, like headed down the road.

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They are from Kerrville, Texas originally.

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Wow.

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And so this is in their area, um, of where they came from.

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So it's just, it's nice seeing companies step up, um, and use their resources,

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profit and resources for good.

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Cool.

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Awesome.

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Okay.

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Mine's just a funny little silly to round us out.

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Um, Russell is a Eurasian crow.

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Okay.

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Russell work.

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Not Russell.

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Crow.

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Not.

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Why the fuck did he has to be?

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That has, you've gotta be, I didn't even think about that.

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Oh my God.

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Russell is this little crow, and he was an orphaned juvenile bird when

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a Danish family rehabilitated him.

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And saw him through his fledgling stage, whatever.

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So Russell just kind of comes as he goes.

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Like, he's not a house bird.

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He'd be flying whatever.

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He's a free man, but yeah.

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But he is just stricken with this family's little boy, Otto.

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He's like a little toddler, like in, oh my god, kindergarten.

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Um, Russell often visits the family, like he'll be gone and

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then they'll come back and this little fricking bird is just like.

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Sitting on their couch, knocking on the door, on the roof.

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Just like where my friend waiting for this little boy.

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It's just gorgeous.

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It's so cute.

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I cute.

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Okay, I'm gonna need to look up some footage.

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He's really cute.

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Um, yeah, he just like sits on the roof and waits for this little

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boy to come home from school.

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Um, and they just, they just love him and they're so happy that he

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just comes back because he bonded.

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Oh my God.

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With them.

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So he kind of returns and comes back, which is cute.

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Guess what guys?

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Birds

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have feelings too.

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Birds have feelings,

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including the

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ones that you're eating.

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Sorry, I had to say it.

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Well, that's it.

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Eat birds.

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Eat birds.

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This has been another episode of But For Real, produced by Valerie

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Martin and Emerson writer, and edited by Sean Conlin, but For Real

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is a Gaia Center production.

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The Gaia Center offers individual couples and group therapy for clients

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across Tennessee and in person in our Nashville office, as well as coaching

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for clients worldwide for show notes or to learn more about our work.

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Visit Gaia center.co or find us on Instagram at the Gaia Center and at.

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But for Real

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Pod but for Real is intended for education and entertainment and is not a

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substitute for mental health treatment.

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Also since we host this podcast primarily as humans rather than clinicians, we

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are not shy here about sharing our opinions on everything from snacks and

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movies to politicians and social issues.

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Thanks so much for listening to this episode.

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See you next time.

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Bestie.

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About the Podcast

But For Real
Welcome to But For Real: the podcast where all your swirling thoughts about mental health, pop culture, and how to human are blended into one delicious variety show, co-hosted by therapists Valerie Martin (resident elder millennial ✌️) and Emerson Ryder (resident Gen Z 🫶).

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Valerie Martin